Bitcoin
Posted by: Kevin Richardson on 06 August 2017
I'm selling all my material possessions, equities and bonds. So... I'll be back in 5 years once I have my Statement system up and running. Until then, thanks for all the good advice.
count.d posted:Thanks Simon & Kevin, I need to digest this info. Yes UK Kevin and I've watched VTC this week. Back to $3 from nearly $6.
Yeah and I was visiting friends out of town and was unable to sell when it got to $6. 
C'est la vie. I've gone long term for VTC. It has everything I want to see in a coin. It is mineable by individuals with modest computers. If you have a PC I would suggest you install their "one click miner" and you can start mining VTC for "free" (well cost of electricity). It is ASIC resistant so we will not see massive concentration of hashing power which is important for a coin to remain "democratic".
Kevin Richardson posted:count.d posted:In the simplest and safest terms, what is the best way to buy VTC? Is it to open an account with Coinbase, buy Bitcoin and then buy VTC? Then how do you store it safely (in simplest terms :-))
Are you in UK or USA? If so... Coinbase to buy BTC... Bittrex.com to trade BTC for VTC.
VTC has "crashed" down to my buy price around $3.00. You can easily store VTC on a Ledger Nano S hardware wallet [available from Amazon for about $100] or the VTC wallet/node [I use this and it only takes maybe 20 GB(?) space and a few % cpu] available on the VTC website.
Just be prepared for volatility and risk of significant short-mid term depreciation. The Bitcoin strength has caused alt coins to sell off. If you do invest.... make sure you buy small amounts on a regular basis [dollar cost average]. This will give you a close approximation to the average price of the coin over the period.
VTC is a strong contender for "top 3 status" but no guarantee. [Obviously this risk is offset by the possible massive reward]
Hi Kevin,
I've been looking to buy VTC here in UK, but Coinbase, who I use, aren't yet trading in VTC, and it appears to be otherwise quite difficult for a UK resident to get involved.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
dave marshall posted:Kevin Richardson posted:count.d posted:In the simplest and safest terms, what is the best way to buy VTC? Is it to open an account with Coinbase, buy Bitcoin and then buy VTC? Then how do you store it safely (in simplest terms :-))
Are you in UK or USA? If so... Coinbase to buy BTC... Bittrex.com to trade BTC for VTC.
VTC has "crashed" down to my buy price around $3.00. You can easily store VTC on a Ledger Nano S hardware wallet [available from Amazon for about $100] or the VTC wallet/node [I use this and it only takes maybe 20 GB(?) space and a few % cpu] available on the VTC website.
Just be prepared for volatility and risk of significant short-mid term depreciation. The Bitcoin strength has caused alt coins to sell off. If you do invest.... make sure you buy small amounts on a regular basis [dollar cost average]. This will give you a close approximation to the average price of the coin over the period.
VTC is a strong contender for "top 3 status" but no guarantee. [Obviously this risk is offset by the possible massive reward]
Hi Kevin,
I've been looking to buy VTC here in UK, but Coinbase, who I use, aren't yet trading in VTC, and it appears to be otherwise quite difficult for a UK resident to get involved.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
See a previous post.... but.... You buy Bitcoin on Coinbase and transfer it to your account on Bittrex.com. Bittrex is an exchange offering 100's of markets for various currency pairs. I'm pretty sure Bittrex is available to a U.K. residents. [Im in the US so not 100% sure]
If Bittrex isn't available to you.... checkout Coinmarketcap.com. That site lists all the crypto trading anywhere in the world. It provides information about each crypto including which exchanges trade them.
Good luck!
If you have a windows computer try the VTC one click miner. You can have fun mining a few coins for free.
Interestingly Björk’s new album, Utopia, is only going to be purchasable via crypto and not via fiat... I hope it sounds good ... I do rather like Björk
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:Interestingly Björk’s new album, Utopia, is only going to be purchasable via crypto and not via fiat... I hope it sounds good ... I do rather like Björk
Do not give in to this temptation. In 10 years you'll remember "that Bjork album that cost me $50,000."
Looks like the SegWit2x fork has been cancelled. Nothing but blue skies ahead for bitcoin.
Kevin Richardson posted:winkyincanada posted:Simon-in-Suffolk posted:I also noted one of the fastest growing areas of new technology jobs in the UK is bitcoin and block chain related.
Doesn't this kind-of contradict the notion that the true "value" of "bitcoin" is in reducing transaction costs?
You also refer to it as an "investment"? I guess it is in the sense that it has, and could continue to increase in price, but it is surely a less-than-zero-sum game. The underlying value of a "bitcoin" is, and can only ever be zero, other than it's value as a means of transaction. It can't ever (on average) be more than the a way of moving wealth, can it? Nothing about the the physical world changes as the price changes. Labour, electricity and hardware are being consumed to produce these things, of course - that's a net loss. But it's not like building a mine, a factory or a farm. It's not even like making a consumer good.
I'm not saying a lot of people haven't and won't continue to become wealthy from trading these things, but nothing of underlying value has been created. Their increased wealth must be at the expense of others'.
This takes the traditional approach to valuation that says "Bitcoin is gaining in value". Many people are looking at it from the POV that "USD/GBP/EUR are losing value".
USD/GBP/EUR only lose value in the sense that the things you might like to buy with them might become more expensive. There's not much evidence that this is any different now than it has been previously. Inflation rates in these currencies are low and have been for a long time.
Wealth will shift between people as a consequence of crypto trading. I'm yet to be convinced that any wealth will be created. But I can see how wealth is being destroyed by allocating significant time and computer resources and energy to what is nothing more than re-arranging bits on silicon.
Then there's this....
winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:winkyincanada posted:Simon-in-Suffolk posted:I also noted one of the fastest growing areas of new technology jobs in the UK is bitcoin and block chain related.
Doesn't this kind-of contradict the notion that the true "value" of "bitcoin" is in reducing transaction costs?
You also refer to it as an "investment"? I guess it is in the sense that it has, and could continue to increase in price, but it is surely a less-than-zero-sum game. The underlying value of a "bitcoin" is, and can only ever be zero, other than it's value as a means of transaction. It can't ever (on average) be more than the a way of moving wealth, can it? Nothing about the the physical world changes as the price changes. Labour, electricity and hardware are being consumed to produce these things, of course - that's a net loss. But it's not like building a mine, a factory or a farm. It's not even like making a consumer good.
I'm not saying a lot of people haven't and won't continue to become wealthy from trading these things, but nothing of underlying value has been created. Their increased wealth must be at the expense of others'.
This takes the traditional approach to valuation that says "Bitcoin is gaining in value". Many people are looking at it from the POV that "USD/GBP/EUR are losing value".
USD/GBP/EUR only lose value in the sense that the things you might like to buy with them might become more expensive. There's not much evidence that this is any different now than it has been previously. Inflation rates in these currencies are low and have been for a long time.
Wealth will shift between people as a consequence of crypto trading. I'm yet to be convinced that any wealth will be created. But I can see how wealth is being destroyed by allocating significant time and computer resources and energy to what is nothing more than re-arranging bits on silicon.
Then there's this....
That link relates to Ethereum which is more a platform than currency. Bitcoin will never hard fork like this. Good news is those ETH will be lost forever potentially making ETH more valuable. If they do hard fork to save someone's ass then Ethereum will start to lose credibility. Whatever they do it is good news for Bitcoin.
How can you say no wealth has been created? A single bitcoin now buys 6 Troy ounces of gold. The market cap of Bitcoin is nearly $125,000,000,000. Seems to me plenty of government fiat is flowing into the market. The people selling @ $7,400 are buying cars, homes, land etc.
Kevin Richardson posted:How can you say no wealth has been created? A single bitcoin now buys 6 Troy ounces of gold. The market cap of Bitcoin is nearly $125,000,000,000. Seems to me plenty of government fiat is flowing into the market. The people selling @ $7,400 are buying cars, homes, land etc.
Huh? What? How the hell does bitcoin create (as opposed to facilitate trading of) value or wealth? The price of bitcoin is not in any way a measure of value created by bitcoin. It is simply the currently agreed price, which is higher than the previously agreed price. It is entirely dependent on the expectation that people in the future will agree on the same thing.
There is no underlying value in the specific arrangement of the computer bits (which is what a bitcoin is). The wealth was created by the building of the cars and homes, and by the development of the land. The people who worked for the $7,400 to buy the bitcoin have created the wealth, been paid for doing so in conventional currencies (few jobs pay in bitcoin) and then given it to the people selling the bitcoin. The buyers of bitcoin just hope that someone in the future who has also created wealth will give it to them in exchange.
Kevin Richardson posted:Looks like the SegWit2x fork has been cancelled. Nothing but blue skies ahead for bitcoin.
winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:How can you say no wealth has been created? A single bitcoin now buys 6 Troy ounces of gold. The market cap of Bitcoin is nearly $125,000,000,000. Seems to me plenty of government fiat is flowing into the market. The people selling @ $7,400 are buying cars, homes, land etc.
Huh? What? How the hell does bitcoin create (as opposed to facilitate trading of) value or wealth? The price of bitcoin is not in any way a measure of value created by bitcoin. It is simply the currently agreed price, which is higher than the previously agreed price. It is entirely dependent on the expectation that people in the future will agree on the same thing.
There is no underlying value in the specific arrangement of the computer bits (which is what a bitcoin is). The wealth was created by the building of the cars and homes, and by the development of the land. The people who worked for the $7,400 to buy the bitcoin have created the wealth, been paid for doing so in conventional currencies (few jobs pay in bitcoin) and then given it to the people selling the bitcoin. The buyers of bitcoin just hope that someone in the future who has also created wealth will give it to them in exchange.
Wealth is "an abundance of valuable possessions or money". Each early bitcoin is now worth $7,800 USD. People create bitcoins from electricity and processing power. Bitcoin is used as a currency so people are literally creating money. If you created bitcoins on your computer back in 2010 and just held them.... you would have millions of $ worth of bitcoin.
Most things have no "underlying value" other than what somebody will trade for them. Please do not look into the art market. You'd likely have a MI upon discovering some pieces of canvas with paint spread about in some "specific arrangement" have sold for $300,000,000.
Many businesses currently accept bitcoin as payment. The rate of adoption is accelerating.
Are you going to still be scratching your head when bitcoin trades for $10,000, $25,000, $100,000, and $1,000,000?
winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:Looks like the SegWit2x fork has been cancelled. Nothing but blue skies ahead for bitcoin.
You sound bitter. Are you one of those people that had the chance to buy 10,000 bitcoin for $100 but passed?
Kevin Richardson posted:winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:How can you say no wealth has been created? A single bitcoin now buys 6 Troy ounces of gold. The market cap of Bitcoin is nearly $125,000,000,000. Seems to me plenty of government fiat is flowing into the market. The people selling @ $7,400 are buying cars, homes, land etc.
Huh? What? How the hell does bitcoin create (as opposed to facilitate trading of) value or wealth? The price of bitcoin is not in any way a measure of value created by bitcoin. It is simply the currently agreed price, which is higher than the previously agreed price. It is entirely dependent on the expectation that people in the future will agree on the same thing.
There is no underlying value in the specific arrangement of the computer bits (which is what a bitcoin is). The wealth was created by the building of the cars and homes, and by the development of the land. The people who worked for the $7,400 to buy the bitcoin have created the wealth, been paid for doing so in conventional currencies (few jobs pay in bitcoin) and then given it to the people selling the bitcoin. The buyers of bitcoin just hope that someone in the future who has also created wealth will give it to them in exchange.
Wealth is "an abundance of valuable possessions or money". Each early bitcoin is now worth $7,800 USD. People create bitcoins from electricity and processing power. Bitcoin is used as a currency so people are literally creating money. If you created bitcoins on your computer back in 2010 and just held them.... you would have millions of $ worth of bitcoin.
Most things have no "underlying value" other than what somebody will trade for them. Please do not look into the art market. You'd likely have a MI upon discovering some pieces of canvas with paint spread about in some "specific arrangement" have sold for $300,000,000.
Many businesses currently accept bitcoin as payment. The rate of adoption is accelerating.
Are you going to still be scratching your head when bitcoin trades for $10,000, $25,000, $100,000, and $1,000,000?
Why do you measure the "value" of bitcoin in USD?
I never said that people who have profited from bitcoin aren't wealthy, just that the wealth was not created in any tangible or even abstract sense by bitcoin. The wealth was created by, and has come from others. The wealth of people holding bitcoin is entirely predicated on their expectation that someone in the future will swap with them for something of value. It's just the same a regular money.
Art is a good example. Yes, the "value" of art is entirely in the eye of the beholder. I can't see anyone admiring a string of ones and zeros.
Kevin Richardson posted:winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:Looks like the SegWit2x fork has been cancelled. Nothing but blue skies ahead for bitcoin.
You sound bitter. Are you one of those people that had the chance to buy 10,000 bitcoin for $100 but passed?
Add it to the countless investments that we all could have, but didn't make. Thankyou, Captain Hindsight. I truly wish you well in that you can find the next sucker. There does indeed to be an endless supply for the time being, a least. I hope you get out in time.
winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:How can you say no wealth has been created? A single bitcoin now buys 6 Troy ounces of gold. The market cap of Bitcoin is nearly $125,000,000,000. Seems to me plenty of government fiat is flowing into the market. The people selling @ $7,400 are buying cars, homes, land etc.
Huh? What? How the hell does bitcoin create (as opposed to facilitate trading of) value or wealth? The price of bitcoin is not in any way a measure of value created by bitcoin. It is simply the currently agreed price, which is higher than the previously agreed price. It is entirely dependent on the expectation that people in the future will agree on the same thing.
There is no underlying value in the specific arrangement of the computer bits (which is what a bitcoin is). The wealth was created by the building of the cars and homes, and by the development of the land. The people who worked for the $7,400 to buy the bitcoin have created the wealth, been paid for doing so in conventional currencies (few jobs pay in bitcoin) and then given it to the people selling the bitcoin. The buyers of bitcoin just hope that someone in the future who has also created wealth will give it to them in exchange.
Wealth is "an abundance of valuable possessions or money". Each early bitcoin is now worth $7,800 USD. People create bitcoins from electricity and processing power. Bitcoin is used as a currency so people are literally creating money. If you created bitcoins on your computer back in 2010 and just held them.... you would have millions of $ worth of bitcoin.
Most things have no "underlying value" other than what somebody will trade for them. Please do not look into the art market. You'd likely have a MI upon discovering some pieces of canvas with paint spread about in some "specific arrangement" have sold for $300,000,000.
Many businesses currently accept bitcoin as payment. The rate of adoption is accelerating.
Are you going to still be scratching your head when bitcoin trades for $10,000, $25,000, $100,000, and $1,000,000?
Why do you measure the "value" of bitcoin in USD?
I never said that people who have profited from bitcoin aren't wealthy, just that the wealth was not created in any tangible or even abstract sense by bitcoin. The wealth was created by, and has come from others. The wealth of people holding bitcoin is entirely predicated on their expectation that someone in the future will swap with them for something of value. It's just the same a regular money.
Art is a good example. Yes, the "value" of art is entirely in the eye of the beholder. I can't see anyone admiring a string of ones and zeros.
The point of the art reference is that an artist created wealth through his work. Bitcoin miners create wealth by creating new bitcoins.
I measure the value in USD since that is the dominant currency at this point in time. I know a guy who purchased a new Lamborghini with bitcoins. Big ticket purchases with Bitcoin will become more mainstream over the coming years.
This is just the beginning of Bitcoin and its value vs USD/EUR/GBP/gold will ascend to values that may sound ridiculous right now. So just think of Bitcoin as some piece of art made by an artist who is just starting to gain recognition. Maybe the art is ugly to you (like that $300,000,000 piece that looks like crap IMO) but millions see the beauty. The value was created by the miners and investors take on the long term risk. Just like holding any commodity/collectible/foreign currency.
There is a chance that Bitcoin will fail. I believe that Bitcoin will eventually reach a market cap so large that it becomes "too big to fail."
You may not see people coveting Bitcoins but the price appreciation over the last 5 years indicates many do want them. Coinbase added 100,000 accounts over the past week(?).
winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:winkyincanada posted:Kevin Richardson posted:Looks like the SegWit2x fork has been cancelled. Nothing but blue skies ahead for bitcoin.
You sound bitter. Are you one of those people that had the chance to buy 10,000 bitcoin for $100 but passed?
Add it to the countless investments that we all could have, but didn't make. Thankyou, Captain Hindsight. I truly wish you well in that you can find the next sucker. There does indeed to be an endless supply for the time being, a least. I hope you get out in time.
I know of some people whose friends literally offered To sell them 10,000 bitcoins for $100. I'd be a bit bitter if that had happened to me and I passed on the opportunity.
I am a true believer in bitcoin's ability to change the world into a better place. Take power from bankers and give it to the people. If Bitcoin fails then the "free" world is doomed. I believe people will wake up to the evils of centralized currency and will flock to Bitcoin for wealth preservation. In 18 years I'd be surprised if Bitcoin is worth less than $1,000,000.
Why don't you just buy 1 and hold it long term? The downside is trivial vs upside potential.
Kevin Richardson posted:Why don't you just buy 1 and hold it long term? The downside is trivial vs upside potential.
How very unlike a religion.
Pascal's Wager is an argument in philosophy devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–62).[1] It posits that humans bet with their lives that God either exists or does not.
Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas they stand to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).
it seems an increasingly unwieldy instrument. Are there Baby Bitcoins available for those who need to buy things smaller than yachts?
Adam Meredith posted:Kevin Richardson posted:Why don't you just buy 1 and hold it long term? The downside is trivial vs upside potential.
How very unlike a religion.
Pascal's Wager is an argument in philosophy devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–62).[1] It posits that humans bet with their lives that God either exists or does not.
Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas they stand to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).
it seems an increasingly unwieldy instrument. Are there Baby Bitcoins available for those who need to buy things smaller than yachts?
Great argument except the existence of God does not require Heaven and Hell to also exist. [Im an agnostic]
Good news for you.... Bitcoin is divisible to 8 decimal places.
There is a war going on between the Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash groups. Bitcoin is down $800 and Bitcoin Cash is up $1,000. Perfect example why you should never sell your forked coins. Best bet is accumulate BTC:BCH 1:1 just in case BCH "wins".
VTC still looking strong. Is it a contender to be one of the long term winners? I think so.
Bitcoin hit a new all time high over $8,000. A pre fork coin is now trading for 7.5 Troy ounces of gold.
Today a pre fork Bitcoin trades for $9,750. $25,000 next year?
$9,998
Slowly slowly my investments are rising... 30% on the way to my target... certainly rollercoaster at the moment.. so you need to look at average values and if you are brave day trade ... it works but can be nerve racking unless you have the discipline to do in small amounts... and you play a law of averages game as it doesn’t always work out.
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:Slowly slowly my investments are rising... 30% on the way to my target... certainly rollercoaster at the moment.. so you need to look at average values and if you are brave day trade ... it works but can be nerve racking unless you have the discipline to do in small amounts... and you play a law of averages game as it doesn’t always work out.
Ethereum is at new all time high of $455.
A pre fork Bitcoin is now $10,269.
So, for the uninitiated (i.e. me) - what does one need to to do invest a small amount of money in this stuff, i.e. less than the cost of one bitcoin or ethereum? I'm considering a comparatively very small (couple of hundred quid, tops) investment to see what happens.
I presume there are sites etc, but it seems likely that there are also spurious and/or rip off sites. So a word from the wise would be appreciated.