ATC SCM11s: any alternatives?

Christopher_M posted:

Is chopping in the NAP180 for a NAP250, and going for the ATCs of interest?

That's an interesting idea Chris... do you think it's one worth pursuing? I'm presuming you're of the opinion that the 250's extra welly would make the ATCs more exciting? Do you have any experience in this?

Kevin, I use a NAP250 to drive my 19s on the end of a 552DR.. and I think you’d be hard pushed to fault it..

Kevin-W posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Is chopping in the NAP180 for a NAP250, and going for the ATCs of interest?

That's an interesting idea Chris... do you think it's one worth pursuing? I'm presuming you're of the opinion that the 250's extra welly would make the ATCs more exciting? Do you have any experience in this?

I thought it worth pursuing because it might give you gratification now rather than waiting for a few months. Depends what you want.

I don't have experience of running ATCs with any amp, large or small. But early in my NaimLife I was infatuated with IBLs. After running them with relatively small amplifiers by Naim standards, and I noticed that most people who liked them on the forum ran them with a NAP250. In the end I preferred to find some speakers to match my existing amp but my IBL experience struck me as an essentially similar 'problem' to what you are facing with the ATCs, basically a relatively insensitive speaker that could probably do with something more spunky.

It sort of becomes a question of do you want the double change? Obviously you'd have to satisfy yourself in advance that a NAP250 makes the ATCs do what you want.

Hope that helps.

C.

Christopher_M posted:

It sort of becomes a question of do you want the double change? Obviously you'd have to satisfy yourself in advance that a NAP250 makes the ATCs do what you want.

......And is preferable to your existing amp wth the PMCs.

Hi Kevin,

 I still remember my encounter with the Heybrook HB 1 back in the eighties. They looked old fashioned compared to the other speakers the dealer had in his shop and I was surprised to hear that they could take on most of them. Now that was long ago and apart from knowing that they were nice, I have no idea how they actually sounded.

One speaker on my own shortlist hasn’t been mentioned, the Wilson Benesch Square One. Are they within your financial comfort zone?

Corry posted:

kuma posted:

No contest.

ATC FTW! 

Did you mean no contest between SCM7 and ProAc Tab 10, or between SCM 11 and PMC 25.21?

Corry,

My pick will be ATC against any Proac or PMC. ( I haven't heard all of their models but don't have much high hopes for them )

I'd take the SCM7 over 11 which I feel they might have been dumbed down somewhat.

SCM7 on a high mass stand with a decent amp is highly satisfying and not many speakers large or small can touch it.

kuma posted:

Corry posted:

kuma posted:

No contest.

ATC FTW! 

Did you mean no contest between SCM7 and ProAc Tab 10, or between SCM 11 and PMC 25.21?

Corry,

My pick will be ATC against any Proac or PMC. ( I haven't heard all of their models but don't have much high hopes for them )

I'd take the SCM7 over 11 which I feel they might have been dumbed down somewhat.

SCM7 on a high mass stand with a decent amp is highly satisfying and not many speakers large or small can touch it.

My initial audition of the SCM7 was with my Linn Katan stands – conveniently, the tapered footprint of the SCM7 matched the top plate of the Katan stands almost exactly. Once I’d bought them I ordered a pair of Custom Design FS104s, along with the filling material, following the consensus that ATCs are happiest on heavy stands. But I found these ultimately underwhelming. They brought great solidity and focus to the sound – unbelievable bass from such small boxes! –  but at the expense of flow and PRaT. I then ordered a pair of custom built Something Solid stands, which, despite the name, are light, welded frames, and these seem to work best of all. Maybe less bass and less detail than the FS104s, but a lively, organic, engaging sound. Simon-in-Suffolk, of this forum, has extensive experience with ATC speakers, and favours wooden stands.

I still have the FS104s in my basement, and I might give them a shot again, if the experimentation itch ever strikes. Or maybe I’ll try to track down some wooden stands. My only previous speakers were Katans and Kans, both of which come with stands, so it was quite the learning experience to discover just how crucial a role the stand plays.

I used to use Sound Anchor with my SCM10. I sold those stands to my friends but ever since I am regretting. Now 10s are no a light stand ( not filled ) they just don't have the same solidity as they used to. BTW, you don't want to sill the stands all the way. maybe 3/4 way would do. Filling stands were like almost tuning a Mana glass. lol. fill and listen fill more and listen. 

You don't get the highest degree of details with 7s, but what a fun little speakers! Faster than 11s or 19s for that matter, too.

Corry posted:

kuma posted:

Corry posted:

kuma posted:

No contest.

ATC FTW! 

Did you mean no contest between SCM7 and ProAc Tab 10, or between SCM 11 and PMC 25.21?

Corry,

My pick will be ATC against any Proac or PMC. ( I haven't heard all of their models but don't have much high hopes for them )

I'd take the SCM7 over 11 which I feel they might have been dumbed down somewhat.

SCM7 on a high mass stand with a decent amp is highly satisfying and not many speakers large or small can touch it.

My initial audition of the SCM7 was with my Linn Katan stands – conveniently, the tapered footprint of the SCM7 matched the top plate of the Katan stands almost exactly. Once I’d bought them I ordered a pair of Custom Design FS104s, along with the filling material, following the consensus that ATCs are happiest on heavy stands. But I found these ultimately underwhelming. They brought great solidity and focus to the sound – unbelievable bass from such small boxes! –  but at the expense of flow and PRaT. I then ordered a pair of custom built Something Solid stands, which, despite the name, are light, welded frames, and these seem to work best of all. Maybe less bass and less detail than the FS104s, but a lively, organic, engaging sound. Simon-in-Suffolk, of this forum, has extensive experience with ATC speakers, and favours wooden stands.

I still have the FS104s in my basement, and I might give them a shot again, if the experimentation itch ever strikes. Or maybe I’ll try to track down some wooden stands. My only previous speakers were Katans and Kans, both of which come with stands, so it was quite the learning experience to discover just how crucial a role the stand plays.

 

Interesting that you found the FS104 stands underwhelming. I’m just wondering if the filling material and the amount used had impacted on the sound somewhat? Just a guess. I use the SF104 signature with my SCM11 but I decided not to use any filling material.

When I auditioned the SCM11 at my dealer they placed them on what I think were Target stands. Not open frame but a solid central post design and quite close to the back wall. Have to say they sounded a million times better in my living room when placed on the FS104 signature stands and positioned to my liking.

I find in my room and on my system they have boogie factor by the truckload with a reasonably powerful but well controlled bass. The midrange and highs produce excellent clarity and accuracy.

My SCM11 are placed 14 inches away from a solid brick wall and on a solid concrete and carpeted floor with no toe in. 

Ian.

kuma posted:

I used to use Sound Anchor with my SCM10. I sold those stands to my friends but ever since I am regretting. Now 10s are no a light stand ( not filled ) they just don't have the same solidity as they used to. BTW, you don't want to sill the stands all the way. maybe 3/4 way would do. Filling stands were like almost tuning a Mana glass. lol. fill and listen fill more and listen. 

You don't get the highest degree of details with 7s, but what a fun little speakers! Faster than 11s or 19s for that matter, too.

If memory serves, I filled them about 2/3 of the way up, or whatever the recommendation was. It's possible I would have liked them better with less fill. If I ever dig them out again I will definitely start off with them empty, then add a couple of inches of fill at a time, and fine tune the sound that way.

I think the fun factor was what sold me on the 7. Very expressive speakers, but still quite neutral and insightful. Reminds me ever so slightly of the Kan, but without that untamed, fatiguing, edge-of-the-seat quality.

Re Mana, my phase 4 shelf under my Linn is long overdue for a rebuild, so I'll be revisiting that fun experience this weekend.

Corry posted:

I think the fun factor was what sold me on the 7. Very expressive speakers, but still quite neutral and insightful. Reminds me ever so slightly of the Kan, but without that untamed, fatiguing, edge-of-the-seat quality.

Re Mana, my phase 4 shelf under my Linn is long overdue for a rebuild, so I'll be revisiting that fun experience this weekend.

Interesting that they remind you of Kans. The 7s I have heard reminded me of Sara but more neutral. What I love about ATC is that they are not fussy and can certainly take some beating yet never give up. They continuously kept me engaged. Plus, nothing reproduce better tone of piano than the ATC.

Phase 4 Mana! 

Yikes!@ :0

Certain,y there is no concencus that ATCs are happiest on high mass stands.. quite the contrary... I have been an ATC customer longer than I have been a Naim customer and I have always found every high mass stand I have tried over the years thickens the sound, smears the HF and the sound becomes quite frankly to my ears dull and lifeless... you might as well not bother with ATC drivers. Now my dealer put me onto open frame sounds with ATC many years ago and what a revelation .. at the time I used Something Solid stands... the timing and agility increased and the unnatural bass prominence lessened, and the imaging appeared as well as detail.. what I later learnt was through reduced treble smearing.

As my amps increased in quality I migrated ATC speaker and also migrated to open frame torlyte platform stands and to me they are simply awesome.. and really show what my ATCs and my 552/250 can deliver. My garage was full of various high mass stand cast offs that I had collected over the years .. thankfully the local scrap metal merchant has picked them all up now and I am rid of them..

The other myth is that you need high power amps to wake modern ATCs up.. rubbish... it’s simply not the case with the newer designs, the agility and detail is there with quite modest amps. I agree some of the models of 10 years ago needed a little bit power as they had quite a demanding cross over.. but that has changed with the new curved case designs, but yes low power won’t get you to party levels and I wouldn’t go below say 30 Watts (which these days is hardly high power) of a quality amp. I have enjoyed running my SCMs on a NaitXS.. yes the bass is a little warm and soft, but there is plenty of spark and bounce.

Simon

kuma posted:

Corry posted:

I think the fun factor was what sold me on the 7. Very expressive speakers, but still quite neutral and insightful. Reminds me ever so slightly of the Kan, but without that untamed, fatiguing, edge-of-the-seat quality.

Re Mana, my phase 4 shelf under my Linn is long overdue for a rebuild, so I'll be revisiting that fun experience this weekend.

Interesting that they remind you of Kans. The 7s I have heard reminded me of Sara but more neutral. What I love about ATC is that they are not fussy and can certainly take some beating yet never give up. They continuously kept me engaged. Plus, nothing reproduce better tone of piano than the ATC.

Phase 4 Mana! 

Yikes!@ :0

I only ever heard the Sara once, but on the end of a system that wasn't up to doing them justice. They certainly sounded fun, and I've always been curious to hear them properly.

I listened to some late Liszt the other day via the 7s, and it was the first time I've ever heard a concert grand in my system without feeling like it was on the edge of losing its composure. The 7s are certainly the most bullet-proof speaker I've had in my home. A few months ago I put on the Ludwig hot mix of Led Zeppelin II, and I shut the 250 down, which startled me, as the system wasn't sounding even close to being distressed. Live and learn ;-)

Living with Mana's a bit of a pain, but the phase 4 shelf is the best sounding support I've heard under my Linn. I should be doing the rebuild a couple of times a year, but I can't summon the motivation.

Harbeth P3ESR is another alternative to SCM7/SCM11. A small sealed design monitor based on the BBC LS3/5a design.

I’ve recently moved from SCM40 to Harbeth 30.1 due to room issues and love the Harbeth sound. I think they do vocals and piano as well, if not better, than ATCs.

The Harbeth speakers are very different from the ATCs in character.. I know I flirted with the for a while.. the C7ES3 I had had an enhanced soft sweet upper mid.. which can be quite attractive.. but the bass tightness and dynamics just didnt compare to the the ATCs.. even though I really tried to learn to love them.. in the end I sold them and returned back to ATC... I guess it depends on how you listen... I did find the newer tweeters of the current designs  that ATC build in house reduced the difference in upper mid sweetness considerably... the older ATC Seas tweeters  (I think it was Seas) could be a little hard, and their crossover was quite demanding on amps... hence the old legacy reputation of needing beefy amps I believe 

Corry posted:

Living with Mana's a bit of a pain, but the phase 4 shelf is the best sounding support I've heard under my Linn. I should be doing the rebuild a couple of times a year, but I can't summon the motivation.

Curious about multiple phasing of Mana but I came to sense that's more trouble than they are worth so I stopped at a meager Phase II.

I have two Wall shelves with each Reference top. Neither of them needed a major rebuild to date so far. ( knock wood )

Yes, I don’t think the bass on the 30.1 is as good as SCM40, but saying that I would probably say the same about most ported speakers. The bass on 30.1 is certainly not bad.

I would imagine the bass timing and accuracy on P3ESR is very different to C7ES3 as the P3ESR is a sealed box design, much smaller, and I would expect the bass to be much tighter.

kuma posted:

Corry posted:

Living with Mana's a bit of a pain, but the phase 4 shelf is the best sounding support I've heard under my Linn. I should be doing the rebuild a couple of times a year, but I can't summon the motivation.

Curious about multiple phasing of Mana but I came to sense that's more trouble than they are worth so I stopped at a meager Phase II.

I have two Wall shelves with each Reference top. Neither of them needed a major rebuild to date so far. ( knock wood )

About 15 years ago I switched from a Sound Org table to a Mana phase 1 out of necessity (footfalls). On balance I found it less good than the table, although some musical genres benefitted (electronica, oddly). I then went to Phase 2, and that evened things out. I then thought "screw it" and jumped to Phase 4, and that was better in all ways. A combination of common sense and the length of my T-Kable stopped me going any further.

I’ll bet if you can motivate yourself to rebuild your Mana you’ll hear a worthwhile benefit.

Halloween Man posted:

Harbeth P3ESR is another alternative to SCM7/SCM11. A small sealed design monitor based on the BBC LS3/5a design.

I’ve recently moved from SCM40 to Harbeth 30.1 due to room issues and love the Harbeth sound. I think they do vocals and piano as well, if not better, than ATCs.

I auditioned the P3ESR around the same time as the SCM7. They have a lovely delicacy in the upper mid that’s quite beguiling, but I found the SCM7 to be better all round, and just more fun, especially when cranked up a bit. As always, these things are entirely subjective. My brother has P3ESRs, and I always enjoy hearing his system; it reminds me of why some people run multiple systems, or just swap speakers out from time to time.

Corry posted:

I’ll bet if you can motivate yourself to rebuild your Mana you’ll hear a worthwhile benefit.

Nah..

I'm afraid my geeky tweaky days are over. ( or I should say I do it in a limited term ) Learn to live with 'good enough' is the order of the day.

Altho, I am still hoping  I can get the magic of Miyabi back some day...

P.S. Is this yours?

kuma posted:

Corry posted:

I’ll bet if you can motivate yourself to rebuild your Mana you’ll hear a worthwhile benefit.

Nah..

I'm afraid my geeky tweaky days are over. ( or I should say I do it in a limited term ) Learn to live with 'good enough' is the order of the day.

Altho, I am still hoping  I can get the magic of Miyabi back some day...

 

P.S. Is this yours?

Yep, that's mine!

Beautiful!

P.S. Kevin, Sorry for the thread crapping but just get ATC SCM7 and be happy. Your 72/180 can drive them all day.

Corry posted:

I auditioned the P3ESR around the same time as the SCM7. They have a lovely delicacy in the upper mid that’s quite beguiling, 

100% agree on the delicate beguiling sound with the Harbeth,  but its all in the mid to treble,  not much upper bass & nothing below that.    I did prefer the SCM7,  a hint of more bass,  pin point imaging & seemed to be bomb proof.  But none are an alternative to SCM11,  cabinet size & no bass means its going the wrong way for my tastes.    It looks like I will be going down the ATC road when I change,  SCM19A or 40A is short listed.

kuma posted:

Beautiful!

Thank you!

To my eyes, the LP12 on top of four layes of racks just seems crazy even verging on sad. But each to their own.

ATC SMC40As are probably the best sounding speaker I've heard in my room and they saw of designs costing over 4 times more.