Brexit or Bust !!

Clive B posted:

kuma posted:

Ray,

Same here. But just don't talk about *the subject* with co-workers or at a party if you do not know other's political leaning. The conversation can be quickly heated and turn ugly. I have seen a good friendship got ruined from a heated political argument!

I watched your female MP harassed in public (  the police wasn't helping her either! ), thinking if that happened in the US, a high probability she could be shot by a deranged fanatic... 

And that would be because of the outdated right to bear arms introduced by the second amendment of your constitution.

Anna Soubry is not the first politician in Britain to have been insulted and harangued in public. She may, however, be the first to have made such a big meal out of it.

Anna Soubry didn't have to make 'a big meal of it'. The incident itself made a 'big meal' out of it because of its nastiness and the fact that it was captured on film. 

When you look at the MO of some of the people involved, do you still feel inclined to make light of it? Luckily, most people who protest (and even those like the ones involved in this particular incident) don't usually resort to out and out violence. However, when you consider some of the statements attributed to one of the key participants in this incident and reflect on the recent murder of a 'Remain' MP by an ultra right wing and mentally deranged Brexiteer, the incident takes on a whole different level of concern. 

fatcat posted:

thebigfredc posted:

For the benefit of those who reside outside the UK and whom like to poke fun at the image of the UK represented by the media, I can report that everyday life goes on as usual (at least for the time being).

I filled up with petrol and then drove to work yesterday. I saw kids in town on their way to school, I saw lorries on the roads and when I got to work we had electricity and running water. I didn’t hear one mention of Brexit whilst I was there. It was only when I tuned to Radio 4 on the way home that I felt the need to lock the car doors from the inside in anticipation of some kind of Shaun of the Dead mob dragging me from my vehicle. 

Alas nothing so as exciting as that happened so when I got in, we walked the dog, had dinner and Mrs C watched The Xmas Special of Call the Midwife. 

And the world turned.

Ray

Just a little helping hand, a clue as to what is going on.

WE     ARE     STILL     IN     THE     EU.

Still reaping the benfits.

I acknowledged that by putting (at least for the time being) at the end of the first sentence.

Ray

kuma posted:

Ray,

Same here. But just don't talk about *the subject* with co-workers or at a party if you do not know other's political leaning. The conversation can be quickly heated and turn ugly. I have seen a good friendship got ruined from a heated political argument!

I watched your female MP harassed in public (  the police wasn't helping her either! ), thinking if that happened in the US, a high probability she could be shot by a deranged fanatic... 

Kuma, unfortunately that happens here in the UK too : /

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38079594

I was not jumping on your every word, merely seeking to understand what your post meant. However I owe you an apology: when I read that post of yours this morning it was on a phone, and for some reason the screen did not start until below your first paragraph so I did not see your first paragraph when I read your post. Looking back I can now see it and realise that in the context of your first paragraph the remainder made sense. 

Yes, for the vast majority of people life presently goes on as normal, isolated from the abuse and aggression being levelled at MPs. And aside from that abhorrent behaviour I guess the first direct manifestation of Brexit, in the form of the increased cost of living caused by it, has so far largely been taken it in people’s stride, not yet having reached the point of causing drastic changes in their lives. However, in saying that I am aware that I do not not have much direct awareness of the poorest in society.

So,

Given the recent turn of events in Pariament these past two days, what are your predictions and hopes for the future ?

I am not brave enough to make any predictions, but my hope is that the MPs finally grow some balls, and knowing that the referendum was only advisory, rescind article 50 and call the whole thing off.

Don Atkinson posted:

So,

Given the recent turn of events in Pariament these past two days, what are your predictions and hopes for the future ?

Hope: Referendum leading to Brexit cancellation

Prediction: referendum leading to Brexit cancellation - with a requested delay to the date to allow it to happen.

Woukd I put money on it? No, because the lunatics in the Westminster asylum could do anything! And anyway I am not a gambling person, unless something over which I feel I have control, 

I heard somebody say this morning, that a lot of brexit voters think no deal is better than TMs deal, because they think No Deal means we carry on trading with the EU, under the same terms we’ve enjoyed for the past 40 years.

Can’t say I’m surprised.

fatcat posted:

I heard somebody say this morning, that a lot of brexit voters think no deal is better than TMs deal, because they think No Deal means we carry on trading with the EU, under the same terms we’ve enjoyed for the past 40 years.

Can’t say I’m surprised.

 

I'm beginning to think this thread is in danger of turning into another "Best Jokes" thread..........

Either Osborne or Cameron (can't remember which) said voting for Brexit would make us a more selfish country. I voted for Brexit because I want us to be more selfish. I do not want people to be allowed into the country if they will be difficult, expensive (because they do not pay their own way), or have loads of kids.

Anyone have any facts on immigration and rates of employment of EU migrants vs natives vs non EU migrants vs refugees since the Schengen Agreement ? 

Sumilarly, any facts on UK emigration impacts on EU countries ?

Razor posted:

Either Osborne or Cameron (can't remember which) said voting for Brexit would make us a more selfish country. I voted for Brexit because I want us to be more selfish. I do not want people to be allowed into the country if they will be difficult, expensive (because they do not pay their own way), or have loads of kids.

It's been pointed out time and again that the people you refer to actually pay more into the system then they get out of it.

It is indeed another "Best jokes" thread, Don...

Jude2012 posted:

Anyone have any facts on immigration and rates of employment of EU migrants vs natives vs non EU migrants vs refugees since the Schengen Agreement ? 

Sumilarly, any facts on UK emigration impacts on EU countries ?

You can find a lot of data on the OECD site but if it is that detailed I dont know.

But on a national level in reasonably well-managed country immigration is always a financial plus. Angela Merkel was not crazy, taking that many immigrants is a short term burden but will make germany  more powerful in the long run.

The problems are more social on a local level - the locals see the newcomers as a threat.

Taking on immigrants is a good investment - and as all investments the better you care for it the better the return will be.

naim_nymph posted:

kuma posted:

Ray,

I watched your female MP harassed in public (  the police wasn't helping her either! ), thinking if that happened in the US, a high probability she could be shot by a deranged fanatic... 

 Kuma, unfortunately that happens here in the UK too : /

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38079594

Debs,

Thanks for the link. Surprised to read that  she was shot. How could he got a hold of .22 ?!

The most recent incident I remember is Steve Scalise's ( current House Minority Whip ) shooting in 2017 whilst he was at baseball practice with his colleague. Miraculously he survived along with 3 other republicans after shot by a left wing fanatic.  

jlarsson posted:

 

Taking on immigrants is a good investment - and as all investments the better you care for it the better the return will be.

 

As I read UK's unemployment rate is low, you need immigrant workers to sustain. A country has to have a right vetting process tho. You can just let anyone in without checking background. Hope the UK has that in check.

kuma posted:

jlarsson posted:

 

Taking on immigrants is a good investment - and as all investments the better you care for it the better the return will be.

 

As I read UK's unemployment rate is low, you need immigrant workers to sustain. A country has to have a right vetting process tho. You can just let anyone in without checking background. Hope the UK has that in check.

Yes, and one might start by checking the background of the locals...

Get as many immigrants here as possible to work for us so we can produce multiple kids and live happily on benefits. No need for british to work.  I get it now.

Some immigrants don't work and claim benefits. Even many who work do not pay enough tax to cover their healthcare and children's education (and many have lots of children). They are are burden on the health and education systems.

I think you will find that the economic benefits mentioned (a) are for countries who are more selective over who they admit and (b) are GDP which is an aggregate figure. A higher GDP will help pay off debt but the important figure is the GDP per head. It is, obviously, no good to people if the country has a higher GDP but that is shared between a proportionately greater number of people.

The immigrants of Indian origin who arrived in Britain after being expelled by Idi Amin have been excellent. They are very entrepreneurial, work hard and their children excel at school. I am very pleased they are here.

Some immigrant groups, sadly, do not fit in well. In Rotherham, and elsewhere, gangs of immigrants have been convicted of grooming and raping young girls.

I am not prepared to do anything to help immigrants, whatever the economic benefit, if they do not have similar cultural values to myself.

I read this thread and despair.

The UK built itself on the back of exploiting and stealing from the third world.  In modern years we have supported repressive regimes and sold arms to many tyrants. We have destabilised the Middle East through our support of regime change.

And then I read the insular responses here.

David Lammy MP. House of Commons, 10/01/2019. Worth reading all of this speech.

”Mr Speaker, I have faced many challenges in the two decades I have sat in this house.

But Sunday 7th August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, was by far the greatest.

Walking on broken glass, past burnt-out cars, homes and businesses, comforting men and women still in their pyjamas, I saw the place I had lived my whole life turned to ashes.

Many members of the community were urging me to say that the killing of Mark Duggan by police, which had sparked the riots, justified this rage.

That the families made homeless, the burnt out buses and houses, and the looted shops were worth it.

They told me that I had to say this wrong was right.

Mr Speaker, it was not easy. But I had to look my community in the face, and tell them this violence was a disgrace and condemn it unequivocally.

Why? Because we have a duty to tell our constituents the truth. Even when they passionately disagree.

We owe to them not only our “industry” but also our “judgement.”

We are trusted representatives, not unthinking delegates.

So why do many in this House continue to support Brexit, when they know it will wreck jobs, the NHS and our standing in the world?

--

This is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of the Brexit debate.

Most MPs now recognise it in private, but do not say it in public.

Brexit is a con.

A trick. A swindle. A fraud.

A deception that will hurt most those people it promised to help.

A dangerous fantasy which will make every problem it claims to solve worse.

A campaign won on false promises and lies.

Vote Leave and Leave.EU both broke the law.

Russian interference is beyond reasonable doubt.

And by now every single campaign promise made in 2016 has come unstuck.

Brexit will not enrich our NHS - it will impoverish it.

A trade deal with Donald Trump will see US corporations privatise and dismantle the NHS one bed at a time.

And even those promises on immigration – which has so greatly enriched our country – are a lie.

After Brexit immigration will go up, not down.

When we enter negotiations with countries like India and China, they will ask for three things.

Visas. Visas. And more visas.

And they will get them because we will be weak.

Then there’s the myth about restoring parliamentary sovereignty.

The last two years have shown what a joke that is.

The Prime Minister has hoarded power like a deluded 21st century Henry the Eighth.

Impact assessments have been hidden. Votes resisted and blocked. Simple opponents of a government policy bullied and threatened to get into line.

Even when we forced this meaningful vote, the Prime Minister cancelled it, certain we would reject her disastrous deal.

And oh we will reject it.

Because this is a Lose-Lose compromise, which offers no certainty for our future.

All it guarantees is more years of negotiation – headed by the same clowns who guided us into this farce in the first place.

--

Mr Speaker, we are suffering from a crisis of leadership in our hour of need.

This country’s greatest moments came when we showed courage, not when we appeased.

The courage of Wilberforce to emancipate the slaves, against the anger of the British ruling class.

The courage of Winston Churchill to declare war on Hitler, against the appeasers in his cabinet and the country.

The courage of Atlee and Bevan to nationalise the health service -- against the doctors who protested it was not right.

Today we must be bold, because the challenges we face are just as extreme.

We must not be afraid to tell the truth to those who do not agree.

--

Friends on this side of the house tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns.

The former miners, the factory workers, those who feel they have been left behind.

I say we must not patronise them with cowardice. Let’s tell them the truth.

“You were sold a lie.

Parts of the media used your fears to sell papers and boost viewing figures.

Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson exploited the same prejudice to win votes.

Shame on them.

Immigrants have not taken your jobs. Our schools and colleges failed to give you skills.

Hospitals are not crumbling because of health tourists, but because a decade of austerity ground them down to the bone.

You cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build -- not because Mohammed down the road who moved in.

And wealth was hoarded in London - when it should have been shared across the country.

Blame us, blame Westminster. Do not blame Brussels for our own country’s mistakes.

And do not be angry at us for telling you the truth.

Be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie.

--

As Martin Luther King said long ago “There comes a time when silence is betrayal.”

So just as I speak plainly to the government this time around, let me also speak to the opposition about some home truths.

There is no left-wing justification for Brexit.

Ditching workers’ rights, social protections, and ending environmental cooperation is not progressive.

This is a project about neoliberal deregulation.

It is Thatcherism on steroids, pushed by her modern day disciples.

Leaving the EU will not free us from the injustices of global capitalism, it will make us subordinate to Trump’s US.

Socialism confined to one country will not work.

Whether you like it or not, the world we live in is global.

We can only fix the rigged system if we cooperate across border-lines.

The party of Keir Hardie has always been International.

We must not let down our young supporters by failing to stand with them on the biggest issue of our lives.

If we remain in the EU, we can reform it from the top table.

Share the load of mass migration, address excesses of the bureaucracy, and fix the inequalities between creditor and debtors.

We can recharge the economy.

We can re-fuel the NHS.

We can build the houses we need, after years of hurt.

Hope is what we need.

Remain in the EU.

Give Britain a second opportunity to decide.”

Sadly, the only people who will have read all the excellent speech above are the people who agree with him, and the Brexit people will not have bothered. Sigh. Lammy was (and still is) my constituency MP, as I last lived in Harringay when I was still in London, and still have a house and (for the time being) a vote there. I am not a Labour voter, but he is an excellent constituency MP. Unlike Corbyn in nearby Islington  (his constituents had the highest %age remain vote in the entire country, he seems to disregard his obligations as an MP entirely in this respect).

An MP has said the right thing, at last. I just hope others will hear and follow suit, focussing honestly and diligently on what truly is best for the country as s whole, - whether they agree withDavid  Lammy or not regarding the dud benefits of Brexit.  No furthering of personal desires. No hiding behind statements like the people have had their say. Just to determine what will give the best outcome - though I believe that will be to remain in EU.

Those who regularly use the NHS may have noticed how immigration has helped to support, sustain and develop the workforce at multiple levels from cleaners, through allied health care professionals to the top of the medical ladder. Sustained by people who come to work, contribute to taxation and society etc. Our NHS would quite literally collapse without them; and they are not doing the jobs of others because we simple do not have UK trained alternatives in sufficient numbers for the higher skilled positions in particular.

The illusion that immigration is about scrounging sickens me, and is not born out by the facts. I wish I could quickly lay my hands on the data but I have a clear quote in my mind that on average immigrants to the UK are more likely to be in work, contribute more average tax and also are on average of higher academic achievement than the UK resident population.

I think many confuse those who seek asylum with legal immigration. The right wing press is delighted to foster that error. If I were allowed to comment on the ginger one I would point out the disinformation and lies that are used in a similar way in the US. Same principles at work though; making false associations and connections to spread fear and suspicion.

I don't normally post on this because it is so contentious to many. Sorry if I offend anyone.

Bruce

rodwsmith posted:

David Lammy MP. House of Commons, 10/01/2019. Worth reading all of this speech.

”Mr Speaker, I have faced many challenges in the two decades I have sat in this house.

But Sunday 7th August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, was by far the greatest.

Walking on broken glass, past burnt-out cars, homes and businesses, comforting men and women still in their pyjamas, I saw the place I had lived my whole life turned to ashes.

Many members of the community were urging me to say that the killing of Mark Duggan by police, which had sparked the riots, justified this rage.

That the families made homeless, the burnt out buses and houses, and the looted shops were worth it.

They told me that I had to say this wrong was right.

Mr Speaker, it was not easy. But I had to look my community in the face, and tell them this violence was a disgrace and condemn it unequivocally.

Why? Because we have a duty to tell our constituents the truth. Even when they passionately disagree.

We owe to them not only our “industry” but also our “judgement.”

We are trusted representatives, not unthinking delegates.

So why do many in this House continue to support Brexit, when they know it will wreck jobs, the NHS and our standing in the world?

--

This is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of the Brexit debate.

Most MPs now recognise it in private, but do not say it in public.

Brexit is a con.

A trick. A swindle. A fraud.

A deception that will hurt most those people it promised to help.

A dangerous fantasy which will make every problem it claims to solve worse.

A campaign won on false promises and lies.

Vote Leave and Leave.EU both broke the law.

Russian interference is beyond reasonable doubt.

And by now every single campaign promise made in 2016 has come unstuck.

Brexit will not enrich our NHS - it will impoverish it.

A trade deal with Donald Trump will see US corporations privatise and dismantle the NHS one bed at a time.

And even those promises on immigration – which has so greatly enriched our country – are a lie.

After Brexit immigration will go up, not down.

When we enter negotiations with countries like India and China, they will ask for three things.

Visas. Visas. And more visas.

And they will get them because we will be weak.

Then there’s the myth about restoring parliamentary sovereignty.

The last two years have shown what a joke that is.

The Prime Minister has hoarded power like a deluded 21st century Henry the Eighth.

Impact assessments have been hidden. Votes resisted and blocked. Simple opponents of a government policy bullied and threatened to get into line.

Even when we forced this meaningful vote, the Prime Minister cancelled it, certain we would reject her disastrous deal.

And oh we will reject it.

Because this is a Lose-Lose compromise, which offers no certainty for our future.

All it guarantees is more years of negotiation – headed by the same clowns who guided us into this farce in the first place.

--

Mr Speaker, we are suffering from a crisis of leadership in our hour of need.

This country’s greatest moments came when we showed courage, not when we appeased.

The courage of Wilberforce to emancipate the slaves, against the anger of the British ruling class.

The courage of Winston Churchill to declare war on Hitler, against the appeasers in his cabinet and the country.

The courage of Atlee and Bevan to nationalise the health service -- against the doctors who protested it was not right.

Today we must be bold, because the challenges we face are just as extreme.

We must not be afraid to tell the truth to those who do not agree.

--

Friends on this side of the house tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns.

The former miners, the factory workers, those who feel they have been left behind.

I say we must not patronise them with cowardice. Let’s tell them the truth.

“You were sold a lie.

Parts of the media used your fears to sell papers and boost viewing figures.

Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson exploited the same prejudice to win votes.

Shame on them.

Immigrants have not taken your jobs. Our schools and colleges failed to give you skills.

Hospitals are not crumbling because of health tourists, but because a decade of austerity ground them down to the bone.

You cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build -- not because Mohammed down the road who moved in.

And wealth was hoarded in London - when it should have been shared across the country.

Blame us, blame Westminster. Do not blame Brussels for our own country’s mistakes.

And do not be angry at us for telling you the truth.

Be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie.

--

As Martin Luther King said long ago “There comes a time when silence is betrayal.”

So just as I speak plainly to the government this time around, let me also speak to the opposition about some home truths.

There is no left-wing justification for Brexit.

Ditching workers’ rights, social protections, and ending environmental cooperation is not progressive.

This is a project about neoliberal deregulation.

It is Thatcherism on steroids, pushed by her modern day disciples.

Leaving the EU will not free us from the injustices of global capitalism, it will make us subordinate to Trump’s US.

Socialism confined to one country will not work.

Whether you like it or not, the world we live in is global.

We can only fix the rigged system if we cooperate across border-lines.

The party of Keir Hardie has always been International.

We must not let down our young supporters by failing to stand with them on the biggest issue of our lives.

If we remain in the EU, we can reform it from the top table.

Share the load of mass migration, address excesses of the bureaucracy, and fix the inequalities between creditor and debtors.

We can recharge the economy.

We can re-fuel the NHS.

We can build the houses we need, after years of hurt.

Hope is what we need.

Remain in the EU.

Give Britain a second opportunity to decide.”

Sadly, the only people who will have read all the excellent speech above are the people who agree with him, and the Brexit people will not have bothered. Sigh. Lammy was (and still is) my constituency MP, as I last lived in Harringay when I was still in London, and still have a house and (for the time being) a vote there. I am not a Labour voter, but he is an excellent constituency MP. Unlike Corbyn in nearby Islington  (his constituents had the highest %age remain vote in the entire country, he seems to disregard his obligations as an MP entirely in this respect).

Sorry Rod - that text doesn’t impress me one bit. It is simply the view of an ardent Remainer who is determined (as are you) to do his best thwart the democratic will of the UK’s electorate.

That is precisely what he is saying. When it becomes established that the ‘will of the people’ is wrong, was misguided (almost certainly illegally) and is going to lead to disastrous consequences, it is time for right-thinking people to call for a reassessment the will of the people, by asking them again. Even the most ardent brexit-person cannot begin to suggest that the situation has not changed in the last two years. The pound in your pocket is worth 10% less for a start, with all the implications for commerce in every way that this entails. What could possibly be described as undemocratic about a second referendum?

Capital punishment is wrong. But if it were put to the UK electorate in a referendum, then it would be, at best, a close-run thing. Sometimes, the ‘will of the people’ is best ignored.

Here is a link regarding the academic qualifications of UK immigrants vs the average UK population. Confirms my assertion above

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne...killed-migration-in/

and another re employment rates (it appears higher for foreign born men than UK residents but lower for foreign born women than UK residents, also higher rates for EU immigrants compared to non EU ie Asian). Lots of detail here, also mentions average academic attainment higher than UK ave.

https://migrationobservatory.o...he-uk-labour-market/

Scroungers, clearly.

Bruce