ATC SCM11s: any alternatives?

Kevin-W posted:

Guys and gals:

I have finally decided to upgrade (but keep) my beloved old Heybrook HB1s (bought at the end of 1984 from the old Sound Org shop at London Bridge).

With £1,500 to spend (including stands)  a visit to my dealer earlier yielded the suggestion of ATC SCM11s. Nice and compact, decent WAF scores and rave reviews. I've heard them in another context and was pretty wowed by them.

I've got a listening room demo booked for next week, with the option of taking them home for a week or two before buying. I don't really want to spend weeks faffing about comparing speakers and I don't have a penny more than £1,500 to spend. Once I hear something that has the qualities of the HB1s - fun, speed, leanness etc - but better, that's what I'll buy. (And if the ATCs don't offer a massive improvement on what I've already got, I might replace my Lingo 2 with a Lingo 4 instead...)

However if anyone has any suggestions (my dealer also stocks B&W - I have to say I'm not a huge fan of the B&Ws I've heard, I think they're boring - Rega, PMC, Neat, Dynaudio, Focal - not a fan - and Linn speakers) that I might audition within my budget, they'll be gratefully received.

Cheers!

 

Yes - ProAc Tablette 10 Signatures, very similar price but different character entirely. I demo'd both back-to-back last week. I found the ATC's to be very balanced and neutral but ultimately short on detail. Loved the ProAc's - great soundstage, very revealing, good PRAT but not enough bass for my tastes, probably because of their diminutive stature but they did punch above their weight. 

If it were me I'd be looking to sample Dynaudio and PMC as well, both a great match for Naim (but so is ATC and ProAc for that matter).

In the end it really is down to personal taste, I hope you can do a home demo -it's the only way to be sure and not make a very expensive mistake!

For the price you quote, the SCM11's are flippin' superb and would bring you much joy I feel. Love 'em, but....... a nice pair of pre-loved PMC's (Twentyfive21 or 22 or older Twenty21 or 22) would be perfect too.

Note : I am a PMC fanboy.

I wonder if your NAP will struggle with the relative lack of sensitivity of the ATCs compared with the Heybrooks. A home dem will tell, if you can.

Christopher_M posted:

I wonder if your NAP will struggle with the relative lack of sensitivity of the ATCs compared with the Heybrooks. A home dem will tell, if you can.

That was my initial thought too, Chris.  Then I reflected that years ago I had a pair of Heybrook HB2s (still in my loft somewhere), similar to Kevin's HB1s, and as I recall they were of low sensitivity too. However an A&R A60 drove them very well so maybe Kev's Nap 180 will be man enough.  

HB2s - now they were just a great pair of speakers.  One of my early epiphany moments was listening to Grace Jones on a friend's Sondek, Quantum pre/power amp and Heybrook HB2 system.

And don’t forget the Russel K range.. they are superb with smaller amps such as some of the smaller Naim ones... they have phenomenal timing that can be uncanny..albeit at the cost they can sound a little forward in some rooms

ATC HTS11. 

SCMs but on the wall.

Even more WAF bonus if you can hide the cables.

tried this and the bigger brothers versions of the 40. Hands down awesome

Just back from a demo at my dealer. There was an awful lot to like about the ATCs - lovely build, finish and looks; superb detail; great bass for their size; excellent imaging.

However - and this is really important to me, especially having lived with the Hetbrooks for 34 years - and that is that they were slightly lacking in excitement.

Then my dealer swapped them for a pair of PMC 25.21s. Wow! It was love at first listen. All the qualities of the ATCs, but bags of punch and a really high boogie factor (playing the Dan's "Royal Scam" on vinyl was a revelation).

Trouble is they are £800 more expensive, so that means I'll have to wait a few months before I commit, but I will definitely demo these at home once funds allow, because they produce the kind of sound I am looking for.

They look cool, Kevin. Laid back, even 

Presumably you've budgeted for matching stands?

Always better to wait for something you know feels right than plump for a sub-optimal change because it's available now.  A few months won't feel long given the many years you've had the HB1s.

M

Yes absolutely Mike. I was so glad I heard them (PMCs) because I was a tad disappointed by the ATCs, for all their good points. I don't think i could have lived with them long term. I like the PMC stands as well so yes I will have to factor those in.

Hopefully in January I will be all sorted speaker-wise...

Kevin-W posted:

However - and this is really important to me, especially having lived with the Hetbrooks for 34 years - and that is that [the ATCs] were slightly lacking in excitement.

Maybe they needed a bit more up em.

The PMCs sound more than hopeful.

Kevin-W posted:

Yes absolutely Mike. I was so glad I heard them (PMCs) because I was a tad disappointed by the ATCs, for all their good points. I don't think i could have lived with them long term. I like the PMC stands as well so yes I will have to factor those in.

Hopefully in January I will be all sorted speaker-wise...

I'll look forward to the update and photos, Kevin

Richard Dane posted:

HB2s - now they were just a great pair of speakers.  One of my early epiphany moments was listening to Grace Jones on a friend's Sondek, Quantum pre/power amp and Heybrook HB2 system.

Hi Richard,

Not wishing to stray off topic, we went to see Grace this  year and she was fantastic. Totally blown away, great entertainer and fabulous singing which and I don’t know why came as a pleasant surprise.

Anyways...speakers!!!

Christopher_M posted:

Kevin-W posted:

However - and this is really important to me, especially having lived with the Hetbrooks for 34 years - and that is that [the ATCs] were slightly lacking in excitement.

Maybe they needed a bit more up em.

The PMCs sound more than hopeful.

Absolutely, very much about system synergy.. the ATCs are very transparent, but they won’t add any tizz or bass warmth if not there... the 25.21 are an interesting speaker... good extension, and they can liven things up, and look quite hitec... but perhaps not best on high end amplification in my experience as the treble relative coarseness and slightly sat upon dynamics start to show through... but that was  on the end of 552 and Statement system... perhaps not their natural partners

FWIW having recently tested the ATC's, ProAc Tabs and the PMC's I fell down on the side of the PMC's too. They deliver a similar experience to my current Dynaudio's but are less fussy in placement. 

In terms of price - seek out some ex-demo's and don't forget about the trade-in value of your current speakers too. That will lighten the load on your wallet and save you running-in hours to boot!

Definitely audition at home for a good week or so with long listening sessions before committing. Speaker and room are the hardest things in my experience to get right. In your room at home the PMCs might be a little too exciting, and the ATCs just right, or you may find the PMCs perfect as you did at the dealers.

I'm a big fan of both ATC and PMC. When auditioning PMCs I found no toe in or at least a tiny bit of toe in helped balance the top end.

I have the ATC SCM11 and couldn’t be happier. Their neutrality, speed and insight are well suited to my ears. One thing that is critical is the type of stands used. I have mine placed on Custom Design FS104 signature stands which work very well. I’m also led to believe that they are generally more suited to an open stand design.

Ian.

Kevin-W posted:

Just back from a demo at my dealer. There was an awful lot to like about the ATCs - lovely build, finish and looks; superb detail; great bass for their size; excellent imaging.

However - and this is really important to me, especially having lived with the Hetbrooks for 34 years - and that is that they were slightly lacking in excitement.

Then my dealer swapped them for a pair of PMC 25.21s. Wow! It was love at first listen. All the qualities of the ATCs, but bags of punch and a really high boogie factor (playing the Dan's "Royal Scam" on vinyl was a revelation).

Trouble is they are £800 more expensive, so that means I'll have to wait a few months before I commit, but I will definitely demo these at home once funds allow, because they produce the kind of sound I am looking for.

A couple of years ago I auditioned the SCM11s at home against their junior siblings, the SCM7s. I found the SCM11 better in the technical sense: more open, more neutral, more detailed, more even top to bottom tonality, bigger and deeper stereo image, and so on. But after switching back and forth over a period of a week, I concluded that I preferred the SCM7s. Although cut from the same sonic cloth, they sounded more cohesive and did a better job of transmitting the excitement in the music (which might be a roundabout way of saying I found the SCM11s a little boring). To my ears, they just sounded that bit more natural and lifelike, albeit at the expense of a somewhat smaller sound. I ended up buying them, and have no regrets.

About a year ago I started reading rave reviews of the ProAc Tablette 10. If I was in the market for speakers again, these would be at the top of my list. In fact, I might just see if I can wangle a home audition from my friendly local Naim dealer. Just for curiosity …

No contest.

ATC FTW! 

Corry posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Just back from a demo at my dealer. There was an awful lot to like about the ATCs - lovely build, finish and looks; superb detail; great bass for their size; excellent imaging.

However - and this is really important to me, especially having lived with the Hetbrooks for 34 years - and that is that they were slightly lacking in excitement.

Then my dealer swapped them for a pair of PMC 25.21s. Wow! It was love at first listen. All the qualities of the ATCs, but bags of punch and a really high boogie factor (playing the Dan's "Royal Scam" on vinyl was a revelation).

Trouble is they are £800 more expensive, so that means I'll have to wait a few months before I commit, but I will definitely demo these at home once funds allow, because they produce the kind of sound I am looking for.

A couple of years ago I auditioned the SCM11s at home against their junior siblings, the SCM7s. I found the SCM11 better in the technical sense: more open, more neutral, more detailed, more even top to bottom tonality, bigger and deeper stereo image, and so on. But after switching back and forth over a period of a week, I concluded that I preferred the SCM7s. Although cut from the same sonic cloth, they sounded more cohesive and did a better job of transmitting the excitement in the music (which might be a roundabout way of saying I found the SCM11s a little boring). To my ears, they just sounded that bit more natural and lifelike, albeit at the expense of a somewhat smaller sound. I ended up buying them, and have no regrets.

About a year ago I started reading rave reviews of the ProAc Tablette 10. If I was in the market for speakers again, these would be at the top of my list. In fact, I might just see if I can wangle a home audition from my friendly local Naim dealer. Just for curiosity …

I found the Tabs to be faster than the ATCs when testing both speakers back-to-back with a deeper and higher soundstage, more dynamics and greater detail, particularly on vocals. However, they were a tad light on bass for my tastes. Overall, I preferred them to the ATCs but not as much as the PMC Twenty5.21 or the Dynaudio Contours I own today but they are more expensive. 

I agree with Ancient Mariner, the stands are critical, seemingly more so on a neatral speaker like ATC range and very much set the performance envelope. I have found open wooden tripod stands work best (RA) and bring the best balance of agility, timing and clarity with lower mid warmth, good bass extension and a beautiful lack of HF smearing, a fault in my humble opinion of many many setups. I found high mass stands tended to rob the life from the ATCs and add too much warmth, and HF smearing.. and metal open frame stands tended to thin the lower mids too much but timed well..... certainly on my system 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree with Ancient Mariner, the stands are critical, seemingly more so on a neatral speaker like ATC range and very much set the performance envelope. I have found open wooden tripod stands work best (RA) and bring the best balance of agility, timing and clarity with lower mid warmth, good bass extension and a beautiful lack of HF smearing, a fault in my humble opinion of many many setups. I found high mass stands tended to rob the life from the ATCs and add too much warmth, and HF smearing.. and metal open frame stands tended to thin the lower mids too much but timed well..... certainly on my system 

That is really very insightful  - most hi-fi enthusiasts understand the importance of rigid well dampened stands and speakers and know the choice of material affects how a rack can colour music, but I've never ever considered applying this seriously to speaker stands. I've generally bought the stands the speaker manufacturer recommended which are often relabelled versions of others, so can be quite generic I imagine. Having said that, some speakers have the stands integrated, such as Wilson Benesch so there's no choice in the matter? Interesting subject, got me thinking now.....

kuma posted:

No contest.

ATC FTW! 

Did you mean no contest between SCM7 and ProAc Tab 10, or between SCM 11 and PMC 25.21?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 the 25.21 are an interesting speaker... good extension, and they can liven things up, and look quite hitec... but perhaps not best on high end amplification in my experience as the treble relative coarseness and slightly sat upon dynamics start to show through... but that was  on the end of 552 and Statement system... perhaps not their natural partners

Interesting observation Simon. Sadly, top-end amplification isn't a problem I have to worry about... I only have a 72-Hi-180

Kevin-W posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 the 25.21 are an interesting speaker... good extension, and they can liven things up, and look quite hitec... but perhaps not best on high end amplification in my experience as the treble relative coarseness and slightly sat upon dynamics start to show through... but that was  on the end of 552 and Statement system... perhaps not their natural partners

Interesting observation Simon. Sadly, top-end amplification isn't a problem I have to worry about... I only have a 72-Hi-180

Is chopping in the NAP180 for a NAP250, and going for the ATCs of interest?