Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

???? Resurrection wrote,...?But we can certainly leave with a mandated big bang any day of the week.?

According to me,but I'm no politician.... ????51.9%,...It doesn't feel like "a mandated big bang"...see below...????????????

Results of United Kingdom (UK) EU referendum on June 23, 2016 Exclusive Premium Statistic This Statistic Displays the result of the EU referendum that occurred within the United kingdom on June 23rd, 2016.???? 51.9 percent of voter wished for the UK to exit the European Union.

/Peder???? 

Peder posted:

???? Resurrection wrote,...?But we can certainly leave with a mandated big bang any day of the week.?

According to me,but I'm no politician.... ????51.9%,...It doesn't feel like "a mandated big bang"...see below...????????????

Results of United Kingdom (UK) EU referendum on June 23, 2016 Exclusive Premium Statistic This Statistic Displays the result of the EU referendum that occurred within the United kingdom on June 23rd, 2016.???? 51.9 percent of voter wished for the UK to exit the European Union.

/Peder???? 

May is in power, yes power on less of a mandate and it’s her that is reneging on a decision by a mandated MAJORITY made and given in 2016. A mandate that was approved by Parliament several times but never being implemented. Peder, are you from or living in the U.K.? 

Eloise posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

......there were also many "knowns" at the time of the referendum, which were valid then and just as valid now, which most definitely don't fall into the camp of speculation.

True. Although most of the "knowns" were largely unknown to the electorate.

The bigger problem (to quote Rumsfeld again) wasn't the knows and the unknowns ... the BIG problem was the many known unknowns.  Like the question was never asked about subsidiary organisations to the EU ... would we be leaving Euratom (and the potential to deny UK hospitals isotopes for scanners, etc); would we be leaving EASA (and the potential for all UK based flights in and out of Europe to be grounded); would we be denied a EHIC (and the potential to make it virtually impossible for some long term sick people to travel on holiday); would we be leaving the EMA (and so medicines UK companies develop and test would no longer be recognised automatically in Europe) and the list goes on.

Yes none of these things are / were insurmountable in leaving the EU; but all should have been considered a long time ago before the "trigger" was pulled.

I was reading an opinion piece about The Brexit Referendum and referendums in general: it went along the lines that referendums in general only work when the government want to do a particular thing, and want approval for it.  So (for example) in 1997, the Scottish and Welsh devolution referendums were very clear.  There was a proposal for a future situation and the people were asked "should we devolve power giving new national parliaments the following powers; or should we stick with the status quo".  The people knew what would happen if they voted Yes or No.

With the Brexit referendum; the question (or at least the result of answering the question a particular way) wasn't clear.  The referendum was entered into with the government wanting a negative (status quo) result and no clear thinking to what a positive (leave) would mean.  Essentially the referendum should have been the END of the process of negotiating a leave, not the START of the process; but that could never happen because the government wanted to remain.

I'm as unhappy with the question here as you are and have been critical of Cameron, Dacre, Murdoch and the Barclays, and don't recall receiving any support.

To go all Rumsfeld, we are where we are, and as MPW put it a few posts above (here on p108), "what happens here on ??" 

Omni-shambles doesn't come close and I think a general election would be a start.

Christopher_M posted:

Eloise posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

......there were also many "knowns" at the time of the referendum, which were valid then and just as valid now, which most definitely don't fall into the camp of speculation.

True. Although most of the "knowns" were largely unknown to the electorate.

The bigger problem (to quote Rumsfeld again) wasn't the knows and the unknowns ... the BIG problem was the many known unknowns.  Like the question was never asked about subsidiary organisations to the EU ... would we be leaving Euratom (and the potential to deny UK hospitals isotopes for scanners, etc); would we be leaving EASA (and the potential for all UK based flights in and out of Europe to be grounded); would we be denied a EHIC (and the potential to make it virtually impossible for some long term sick people to travel on holiday); would we be leaving the EMA (and so medicines UK companies develop and test would no longer be recognised automatically in Europe) and the list goes on.

Yes none of these things are / were insurmountable in leaving the EU; but all should have been considered a long time ago before the "trigger" was pulled.

I was reading an opinion piece about The Brexit Referendum and referendums in general: it went along the lines that referendums in general only work when the government want to do a particular thing, and want approval for it.  So (for example) in 1997, the Scottish and Welsh devolution referendums were very clear.  There was a proposal for a future situation and the people were asked "should we devolve power giving new national parliaments the following powers; or should we stick with the status quo".  The people knew what would happen if they voted Yes or No.

With the Brexit referendum; the question (or at least the result of answering the question a particular way) wasn't clear.  The referendum was entered into with the government wanting a negative (status quo) result and no clear thinking to what a positive (leave) would mean.  Essentially the referendum should have been the END of the process of negotiating a leave, not the START of the process; but that could never happen because the government wanted to remain.

I'm as unhappy with the question here as you are and have been critical of Cameron, Dacre, Murdoch and the Barclays, and don't recall receiving any support.

To go all Rumsfeld, we are where we are, and as MPW put it a few posts above (here on p108), "what happens here on ??" 

Omni-shambles doesn't come close and I think a general election would be a start.

A sack full of ferrets with no way out until the last one is left and even then it might just be abandined to starve to death after it has consumed all its fellow ferrets. ????

Resurrection posted 

I have to measure my words when I reply as it may either be spiked or ‘edited’. My belief is that 52% voted to Leave and 48% to Remain, although you may have your own magic numbers. What was supposed to happen next is that when we voted to Leave we foolishly believed that the word Leave actually meant Leave.

This is the strangest game I have ever seen. In a clear game of winner takes all, what we have here is a situation where the losing side decides whether or not the prize is to be given, how much is to be given and when, if at all, it is to be given. 

Do you not see anything completely incongruous and illogical with this situation? 

Not really.

The key to this position is to understand that the Brexit vote was not a ‘game’. It was much more serious than that. It could never have been a case of winner takes (or more appropriately decides) all.

Details matter, and I continue to refuse to accept that the ‘winners of a game’ have sole discretion as to the way that prizes are distributed, to the detriment of everyone else. Yes, the vote means that we will leave the EU, but we are all entitled to our view of how best to minimise the potential adverse impact of how we leave.

Do you not accept this?

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted 

I have to measure my words when I reply as it may either be spiked or ‘edited’. My belief is that 52% voted to Leave and 48% to Remain, although you may have your own magic numbers. What was supposed to happen next is that when we voted to Leave we foolishly believed that the word Leave actually meant Leave.

This is the strangest game I have ever seen. In a clear game of winner takes all, what we have here is a situation where the losing side decides whether or not the prize is to be given, how much is to be given and when, if at all, it is to be given. 

Do you not see anything completely incongruous and illogical with this situation? 

Not really.

The key to this position is to understand that the Brexit vote was not a ‘game’. It was much more serious than that. It could never have been a case of winner takes (or more appropriately decides) all.

Details matter, and I continue to refuse to accept that the ‘winners of a game’ have sole discretion as to the way that prizes are distributed, to the detriment of everyone else. Yes, the vote means that we will leave the EU, but we are all entitled to our view of how best to minimise the potential adverse impact of how we leave.

Do you not accept this?

Mate, I am just gob smacked at you accepting that we will leave the EU! I am trying to soothe my wrath at the state of politics and politicians in this country by actually playing music, I just remembered that this B.B. also has an alter ego. ????

I am from Sweden,and see this therefore a little from the "outside".
But my feeling is,as always with politicians,they run their own agenda,not talking about the whole truth,what a decision implies.

This only to have a positive decision on the issue they are pursuing.
On the verge of dishonest,then if I remember correctly,...so when the decision to leave was taken.
Well then,many of those who has responsible, who had run Brexit,they left "the house".

This I reacted to in Sweden,they should instead have stayed on their posts and assumed responsibility for the decision they pushed through.?

But I think that the cause of all this is,that people did not realize what a Brexit really means for them,themselves and the country.
The politicians darkened this during their Brexit campaign.

On such an important issue,it should almost be on the verge of punishable.
It should be necessary to take responsibility for politicians who act so.

????Eloise takes as examples up some things, which people should have been informed of before they voted.....se below ????????????

?would we be leaving Euratom (and the potential to deny UK hospitals isotopes for scanners, etc); would we be leaving EASA (and the potential for all UK based flights in and out of Europe to be grounded); would we be denied a EHIC (and the potential to make it virtually impossible for some long term sick people to travel on holiday); would we be leaving the EMA (and so medicines UK companies develop and test would no longer be recognised automatically in Europe) and the list goes on.?

But as I said,I just look at this from the "outside" and don't have all the facts on the table.
But to be honest,I don't understand this decision,...that you should leave.

/Peder ????

Peder posted:

But as I said,I just look at this from the "outside" and don't have all the facts on the table.
But to be honest,I don't understand this decision,...that you should leave.

/Peder ????

 

I am from India.

I dont understand as well ( maybe for different reasons as Peder ) 

It is now a global spectacle so it doesnt matter too much if someone is from the inside or outside.

My reading  is the UK will need allies more in Europe than across the pond.

I wonder if factor is in the equation.

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Peder posted:

 

 

???? Resurrection,or any other,....Given this comment,I have to ask.

1.?How many in % voted to leave = Brexit.?

2.?How man in % voted to stay in the EU.?

/Peder ????

And how many didn’t vote who were eligible to.

You could ask how many of those who voted did so as a protest but not meaning to leave (unknown, of course, but 100% of the people I know who voted leave),

and how many have changed their minds since 2 years ago in the light of better awareness of what it is likely to mean in practice (also unkown unless there were to be a confirmatory vote).

Once again I have to moderate my language or the moderator will do it for me! There was one Referendum with one clear answer and you don’t like it. You have absolutely no idea about anyone’s opinion other than your own so don’t make up figures or pluck a justification for another referendum out of the air.

You continually rationalise your own wishes against those of the majority , none of which is democratic and easily explains the rise of Populism throughout Europe but not yet here because we do not have a political party worth of its name that actually represents the people, but don’t get too comfortable as things can change very quickly. 

1.  I did not make up any figures
2. I have not plucked a justification for another referendum out of the air, but have several times over given clear reasoning - which you haven’t bothered reading, saying too long, while yourself have no iota of justification for not having a confirmation to confirm such a huge and sweeping step that in one way or another will affect everyone in Britain for many years to come, and quite significantly.
3. What majority is that against which I “rationalise my own wishes? Oh, the very small majority in a vote two years ago against the backdrop of incomplete, incorrect, misleading and downright false information. You are assuming, with no basis, that  the majority desire has not shifted the other way. As I have pointed out before, if the majority do indeed want Brexit, a confirmation vote would not only prove it, but give strength to the difficult decisions that must be made to go ahead and complete it, so anyone truly believing it is what the majority want would welcome a confirmatory vote - and it would shut up the ‘remainers’ once and for all. What is not for upu and other Brexiteers to like?

Of course, as usual, you probably will pretend not to have read the above because it so clearly defeats your argument against confirmation, being a prospect that terrifies you because in your heart of hearts you know the outcome would not be what you want.

 I

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Peder posted:

 

 

???? Resurrection,or any other,....Given this comment,I have to ask.

1.?How many in % voted to leave = Brexit.?

2.?How man in % voted to stay in the EU.?

/Peder ????

And how many didn’t vote who were eligible to.

You could ask how many of those who voted did so as a protest but not meaning to leave (unknown, of course, but 100% of the people I know who voted leave),

and how many have changed their minds since 2 years ago in the light of better awareness of what it is likely to mean in practice (also unkown unless there were to be a confirmatory vote).

Once again I have to moderate my language or the moderator will do it for me! There was one Referendum with one clear answer and you don’t like it. You have absolutely no idea about anyone’s opinion other than your own so don’t make up figures or pluck a justification for another referendum out of the air.

You continually rationalise your own wishes against those of the majority , none of which is democratic and easily explains the rise of Populism throughout Europe but not yet here because we do not have a political party worth of its name that actually represents the people, but don’t get too comfortable as things can change very quickly. 

1.  I did not make up any figures
2. I have not plucked a justification for another referendum out of the air, but have several times over given clear reasoning - which you haven’t bothered reading, saying too long, while yourself have no iota of justification for not having a confirmation to confirm such a huge and sweeping step that in one way or another will affect everyone in Britain for many years to come, and quite significantly.
3. What majority is that against which I “rationalise my own wishes? Oh, the very small majority in a vote two years ago against the backdrop of incomplete, incorrect, misleading and downright false information. You are assuming, with no basis, that  the majority desire has not shifted the other way. As I have pointed out before, if the majority do indeed want Brexit, a confirmation vote would not only prove it, but give strength to the difficult decisions that must be made to go ahead and complete it, so anyone truly believing it is what the majority want would welcome a confirmatory vote - and it would shut up the ‘remainers’ once and for all. What is not for upu and other Brexiteers to like?

 

Of course, as usual, you probably will pretend not to have read the above because it so clearly defeats your argument against confirmation, being a prospect that terrifies you because in your heart of hearts you know the outcome would not be what you want.

 I

Yep, now what were you saying? ????

IB I get attacked on quite a few fronts and really do appreciate sharp, pithy answers and try to reciprocate. You have not covered any new ground and though you may feel you have reshaped your arguments or opened a new front I am afraid it doesn’t look that way to me.

Now...... I cannot be bothered!

mpw posted:

Peder posted:

But as I said,I just look at this from the "outside" and don't have all the facts on the table.
But to be honest,I don't understand this decision,...that you should leave.

/Peder ????

 

I am from India.

I dont understand as well ( maybe for different reasons as Peder ) 

It is now a global spectacle so it doesnt matter too much if someone is from the inside or outside.

My reading  is the UK will need allies more in Europe than across the pond.

I wonder if factor is in the equation.

 

 

Did I tell you I was from India, at least I was born there, Ootacamund where the holy game of snooker was invented.

just as India fought for its sovereignty and independence this is what Brexit is perceived to Brexiteers. Remainers far prefer to be shackled to the EU Kleptocracy. They , the Remainers, may slightly disagree with me but the depth of feeling you can assess for yourself. ????

Peder posted:

I am from Sweden,and see this therefore a little from the "outside".
But my feeling is,as always with politicians,they run their own agenda,not talking about the whole truth,what a decision implies.

This only to have a positive decision on the issue they are pursuing.
On the verge of dishonest,then if I remember correctly,...so when the decision to leave was taken.
Well then,many of those who has responsible, who had run Brexit,they left "the house".

This I reacted to in Sweden,they should instead have stayed on their posts and assumed responsibility for the decision they pushed through.?

But I think that the cause of all this is,that people did not realize what a Brexit really means for them,themselves and the country.
The politicians darkened this during their Brexit campaign.

On such an important issue,it should almost be on the verge of punishable.
It should be necessary to take responsibility for politicians who act so.

????Eloise takes as examples up some things, which people should have been informed of before they voted.....se below ????????????

?would we be leaving Euratom (and the potential to deny UK hospitals isotopes for scanners, etc); would we be leaving EASA (and the potential for all UK based flights in and out of Europe to be grounded); would we be denied a EHIC (and the potential to make it virtually impossible for some long term sick people to travel on holiday); would we be leaving the EMA (and so medicines UK companies develop and test would no longer be recognised automatically in Europe) and the list goes on.?

But as I said,I just look at this from the "outside" and don't have all the facts on the table.
But to be honest,I don't understand this decision,...that you should leave.

/Peder ????

 

Fair enough Peder, however, you might notice that there is quite a lot of political turmoil brewing in Sweden at the moment due to, from my perspective, some appalling decisions by your own politicians. I was just reading today that the far right is making much ground in your own country. 

Brexit in the UK is not just complete disagreement with the EU but complete disagreement with the elite political clauses making unmandated decisions for the ‘benefit’ of citizens including destroying sovereignty and national identity. Recognise any of this Peder as it is sbout to consume politics in your own country?

Resurrection posted:

Brexit in the UK is not just complete disagreement with the EU but complete disagreement with the elite political clauses making unmandated decisions for the ‘benefit’ of citizens 

Is it? Are you saying you believe Brexit will stop the political elite in Britain making unmandated decisions? Who will bring about that reviolution? 

How about your claim that a very small percentage majority, out of a small turnout, taken on the basis of highly flawed information (on both sides) is a mandate for going through with Brexit at any cost without seeking confirmation from the public that that is what they really want? 

???? A proposal,..It would be very interesting,to make a small simple vote here under the "Padded Cell".

1. Remain in the EU.
2. Leave the EU.

Only Members here who are,live in the UK may vote.
Just a fun way to see where the "winds blow" here among our UK members.

It is possible to create such a thread where you can vote anonymously,but perhaps Richard must be helpful here with that.
In any case, just a funny suggestion seems to me ????.

/Peder ????

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Brexit in the UK is not just complete disagreement with the EU but complete disagreement with the elite political clauses making unmandated decisions for the ‘benefit’ of citizens 

Is it? Are you saying you believe Brexit will stop the political elite in Britain making unmandated decisions? Who will bring about that reviolution? 

How about your claim that a very small percentage majority, out of a small turnout, taken on the basis of highly flawed information (on both sides) is a mandate for going through with Brexit at any cost without seeking confirmation from the public that that is what they really want? 

I read all that IB and yes I want us as far away from any and all EU control as possible.

We may have to grow up once more rather quickly but I think even you might be surprised how this can be achieved when we focus on ourselves for once.

And most other countries will still just want to do good trade and have good relations with the UK. If they don’t well someone else will fill their space. Gerronwithit, as my alter ago might say. ????

Resurrection posted:

mpw posted:

Peder posted:

But as I said,I just look at this from the "outside" and don't have all the facts on the table.
But to be honest,I don't understand this decision,...that you should leave.

/Peder ????

 

I am from India.

I dont understand as well ( maybe for different reasons as Peder ) 

It is now a global spectacle so it doesnt matter too much if someone is from the inside or outside.

My reading  is the UK will need allies more in Europe than across the pond.

I wonder if factor is in the equation.

 

 

Did I tell you I was from India, at least I was born there, Ootacamund where the holy game of snooker was invented.

just as India fought for its sovereignty and independence this is what Brexit is perceived to Brexiteers. Remainers far prefer to be shackled to the EU Kleptocracy. They , the Remainers, may slightly disagree with me but the depth of feeling you can assess for yourself. ????

Resurrection 

You're comparing 2 different things.. 

Regards 

mpw posted:

Resurrection posted:

mpw posted:

Peder posted:

But as I said,I just look at this from the "outside" and don't have all the facts on the table.
But to be honest,I don't understand this decision,...that you should leave.

/Peder ????

 

I am from India.

I dont understand as well ( maybe for different reasons as Peder ) 

It is now a global spectacle so it doesnt matter too much if someone is from the inside or outside.

My reading  is the UK will need allies more in Europe than across the pond.

I wonder if factor is in the equation.

 

 

Did I tell you I was from India, at least I was born there, Ootacamund where the holy game of snooker was invented.

just as India fought for its sovereignty and independence this is what Brexit is perceived to Brexiteers. Remainers far prefer to be shackled to the EU Kleptocracy. They , the Remainers, may slightly disagree with me but the depth of feeling you can assess for yourself. ????

Resurrection 

You're comparing 2 different things.. 

Regards 

From an independent perspective I want the same thing. As for support, we are committed members of NATO and that won’t change. No one is suggesting either that we do not have friendly trade relations with any and all European countries.  As an Indian, I imagine that you are also looking forward to a fully conjoined Indian continent between yourselves and Pakistan. And I imagine you are a very proud Indian as am I proud to be a citizen of Great Britain.

NATO was shown its place this morning so lets not talk about it.

No conjoining for us - separation will be very painful as we are seeing here 

Nobody disputes anybody's pride in their country.

Just the senselessness of the referendum which people supporting "brexit"  dont seem to get.

anyways ... as i mentioned - its a global spectacle now.

It needn't have been this way.

I just hope sense prevails and a moderate solution is worked out which satisfies most folks including businesses and people.

For the rest - Ootacamund is waiting with snooker balls ready 

mpw posted:

NATO was shown its place this morning so lets not talk about it.

No conjoining for us - separation will be very painful as we are seeing here 

Nobody disputes anybody's pride in their country.

Just the senselessness of the referendum which people supporting "brexit"  dont seem to get.

anyways ... as i mentioned - its a global spectacle now.

It needn't have been this way.

I just hope sense prevails and a moderate solution is worked out which satisfies most folks including businesses and people.

For the rest - Ootacamund is waiting with snooker balls ready 

 

For a very big birthday I returned and visited the Ooty club.and saw the very snooker table and the rules. Another minor fact, the constitution of India  was drafted there as well. 

Peder posted:

???? A proposal,..It would be very interesting,to make a small simple vote here under the "Padded Cell".

1. Remain in the EU.
2. Leave the EU.

Only Members here who are,live in the UK may vote.
Just a fun way to see where the "winds blow" here among our UK members.

It is possible to create such a thread where you can vote anonymously,but perhaps Richard must be helpful here with that.
In any case, just a funny suggestion seems to me ????.

/Peder ????

Peder, I'm not against having a poll on this forum (though as you say Richard may have something to say about that), but what are you trying to prove? That Brits now understand the implications of a hard Brexit better than they did at the time of the referendum (hence your binary choice)? I'm also not sure how representative of the UK population Naimites are - after all, even entry level Naim kit will still burn quite a hole in the pocket...!

Aw, man. If this turns out just half as bad as how it looks to be going, you guys are totally screwed.

winkyincanada posted:

Aw, man. If this turns out just half as bad as how it looks to be going, you guys are totally screwed.

Yep.

winkyincanada posted:

Aw, man. If this turns out just half as bad as how it looks to be going, you guys are totally screwed.

After the day in parliament and the revealing of the white paper ... there’s only one option for the government to take: withdraw Article 50 and remain in the EU.  The white paper has been condemned accross the remain / Brexit divide, and leaving “without a deal” and without a trade arrangement with the EU (which will require accepting EU regulations without having a say in creating the regulations) is economic suicide.  So the only sane option is, despite the referendum, remain - at least May will satisfy the 48% (at least).  Currently she is satisfying no one!

Eloise posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Aw, man. If this turns out just half as bad as how it looks to be going, you guys are totally screwed.

After the day in parliament and the revealing of the white paper ... there’s only one option for the government to take: withdraw Article 50 and remain in the EU.  The white paper has been condemned accross the remain / Brexit divide, and leaving “without a deal” and without a trade arrangement with the EU (which will require accepting EU regulations without having a say in creating the regulations) is economic suicide.  So the only sane option is, despite the referendum, remain - at least May will satisfy the 48% (at least).  Currently she is satisfying no one!

.........and leaving "with No Deal" will only satisfy Resurrection............

oh, and possibly JR-M, Boris, Gove and Redwood, but to be honest, I don't think anything will satisfy those last four !

Eloise posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Aw, man. If this turns out just half as bad as how it looks to be going, you guys are totally screwed.

After the day in parliament and the revealing of the white paper ... there’s only one option for the government to take: withdraw Article 50 and remain in the EU.  The white paper has been condemned accross the remain / Brexit divide, and leaving “without a deal” and without a trade arrangement with the EU (which will require accepting EU regulations without having a say in creating the regulations) is economic suicide.  So the only sane option is, despite the referendum, remain - at least May will satisfy the 48% (at least).  Currently she is satisfying no one!

TM is already a dead woman crawling. If she touches Article 50 there will be bits of her and her Party in all 27 countries of the  EU. 

Your simplistic solution  has as much chance of flying as a stuffed dodo.