Cisco Catalyst 2960 – which model to buy?

Peder posted:

???? Marcusm wrote,...."Will I get best SQ in adding a “better” Ethernet cable or will it be better to have ”cheaper” cables and an Cisco switch?"

?We have tested..Start with a Cisco-switch. But you must test this in your own music-system.

/Peder???? 

Okay, very interesting!

I think that a single “better” cable, without Cisco switch, is a cleaner a nicer looking solution.

If a Cisco switch near my hifi-kit will give an improved SQ I will have to live with that. One extra Ethernet cable and a switch with power supply is not preferable (for looks) close to the stereo but better SQ is better SQ .

Have you also tested where in the signal chain a “better” Ethernet cable will give the best effect and the magnitude of that effect?

In my case the cable from Melco NAS to my Naim streamer will be the most important.

In comparison, how important will the cable be from wall outlet to Cisco switch and from Cisco switch to Melco NAS?

Difficult question I know but I would appreciate your view of this if you don’t mind.

Thanks!

/Marcus

ChrisSU posted:

Marcus, most people who use Cisco 2960 switches have bought a used one, often for £50 or less on ebay. In the context of your system, that is virtually nothing, so I would just buy one and see what you think. 

I hear you Chris! My plan is to do just that! The 2960 seems to be around £50 with shipping to Sweden and the 2960G is around £100 with shipping.

I just wanted to ask about which model to buy (before ordering) and also if it could be more beneficial to instead buy a “better” cable from wall to Melco NAS instead of adding a Cisco switch in between and an extra Ethernet cable.

Although it’s “only” 50 or 100 £ I would prefer to not spend it if a single “better” Ethernet cable will give a better SQ. It’s also a nicer looking solution…

So far at least I have learned that bypassing my current switch is beneficial. Also adding shielded Ethernet cabled from an to Router is beneficial.

/Marcus

I would guess that the effects of the Cisco switch might be different (or possibly even non-existent) for you with the signal passing through your Melco? I guess the only way to find out is to try one for yourself. 

???? Marcusm,....I come back to you,it's Friday night and others here want my attention ????.

We have tested various things and been surprised,I will try to describe some examples later...but remember English is not my main language ????.

/Peder ????

???? Marcusm,...I see that you are from Gothenburg,then I have an interesting suggestion for you.....
later ????.

/Peder ????

ChrisSU posted:

I would guess that the effects of the Cisco switch might be different (or possibly even non-existent) for you with the signal passing through your Melco? I guess the only way to find out is to try one for yourself. 

Yes, I guess that you are right Chris. I just have to order one and try  

Tomorrow or Sunday I hope to have time to at least try a Netgear GS105 switch. I have one in my “home cinema system” and only need to disconnect it from there and try it in my hifi-system. The Cisco should be better but hopefully I get an indication if a switch could have an effect or not.

/Marcus

Peder posted:

???? Marcusm,....I come back to you,it's Friday night and others here want my attention ????.

We have tested various things and been surprised,I will try to describe some examples later...but remember English is not my main language ????.

/Peder ????

???? Marcusm,...I see that you are from Gothenburg,then I have an interesting suggestion for you.....
later ????.

/Peder ????

Peder, no hurry! Spend time with your family. It’s far more important than hifi or listening to music .

I have put the kids to bed and my wife is watching TV. I’m “free” to listening to music and writing posts on the Naim forum.

“An interesting suggestion for you” sounds exciting. Looking forward to hear what you have in mind. If it’s more appropriate via e-mail I could add my email address to my profile for a short period of time so that you can see it and e-mail me.

Have a nice evening with the family!

/Marcus

MarcusM posted

I have another interesting (at least to me) question regarding the router. Since you cannot bypass it there could be a possibility to an improved SQ in getting “the right router”. Is there something like an “audiophile router” which could give improved SQ? Anyone tested any good routers and found an improved SQ?

Could it also give an improved SQ if you add for example an “iFi iPower trafo” to your existing Router? Have anyone tried that

Ok, interesting question... so from a pure router point there is not much relevance to the network parameters that can effect SQ. however with the switchports on a router where they exist, then there could provide SQ benefits if directly connected to your streamer, just like different switches can.

Unless the router is poorly designed and has a default poor powersupply there is unlikely to be no benefit in changing the powersupply. Clearly if a poor noisy powersupply, them not having that plugged into your mains may well help your audio equipment also plugged into the same. mains.

MarcusM posted:

Peder posted:

???? Marcusm,...We have built Linear Power Supply's = LPS to our WS-C2960-8TC-L Cisco's.

It was clearly better,..maybe it's something you should try on a router too....

/Peder ????

Hi Peder!

Interesting suggestion!

I’m not much of a “hands on” guy so building my own PS will not happen.

That’s why I asked about the “iFi iPower trafo” for the Router. Have you tested the iFi iPower?

I have read some posts from you where you describe your testing and tweaks for the Cisco 2960. Very interesting! Thank you for posting your findings!

Have you compared “lesser cables” + Cisco 2960 vs a better cable (with no Cisco switch)?

Which is the best way of distributing a limited budget when it comes to Ethernet cables and switch?

/Marcus

Marcus, i had before the netgear switch with optional linear ps.  It was sounding softer vs the old refurbished cisco 2960 i had before. But now i have a new cisco switch and all is better sounding now: more involvement, bass, edge, body...

The cisco with your sarum ethernet cable will sound on steroids, perhaps even better if connected directly to the melco.    You will tell us i hope.

Marcus,

Out of interest, if you are looking to maximise your system performance, have you tried switching your Melco from Network mode to Direct mode which isolates it from the network.  It does make a noticeable difference, but it means you will not be able to control your streamer via the Naim app as it won't be able to access the  network. You have to control the streamer from the front panel or remote control to select tracks, but if you know what you want to listen to rather than browsing, it's great!  If you haven't tried it, I would recommend giving it a go.

Jason posted:

Marcus,

Out of interest, if you are looking to maximise your system performance, have you tried switching your Melco from Network mode to Direct mode which isolates it from the network.  It does make a noticeable difference, but it means you will not be able to control your streamer via the Naim app as it won't be able to access the  network. You have to control the streamer from the front panel or remote control to select tracks, but if you know what you want to listen to rather than browsing, it's great!  If you haven't tried it, I would recommend giving it a go.

 

Hi Jason!

No, I have actually never tried ”direct mode” on my Melco NAS. I really should do that some time!

So far I have been “to lazy” since it’s more complicating when you cannot use the Naim app. When I listen to music I often get ideas what to listen to next and controlling the streamer via Melco front panel or via Naim remote is not very tempting 

/Marcus

MarcusM posted:

Jason posted:

Marcus,

Out of interest, if you are looking to maximise your system performance, have you tried switching your Melco from Network mode to Direct mode which isolates it from the network.  It does make a noticeable difference, but it means you will not be able to control your streamer via the Naim app as it won't be able to access the  network. You have to control the streamer from the front panel or remote control to select tracks, but if you know what you want to listen to rather than browsing, it's great!  If you haven't tried it, I would recommend giving it a go.

 

Hi Jason!

No, I have actually never tried ”direct mode” on my Melco NAS. I really should do that some time!

So far I have been “to lazy” since it’s more complicating when you cannot use the Naim app. When I listen to music I often get ideas what to listen to next and controlling the streamer via Melco front panel or via Naim remote is not very tempting 

/Marcus

i understood that it is possible to use naim app when using direct mode for the melco.  The streamer connected to the melco via ethernet cable, the melco to switch.     Dark Bear, in nd555 impressions, explain this . 

French Rooster posted:

i understood that it is possible to use naim app when using direct mode for the melco.  The streamer connected to the melco via ethernet cable, the melco to switch.     Dark Bear, in nd555 impressions, explain this . 

Okay, it can very well be like this. I have not looked in to this at all. Something to do during the Christmas holydays 

/Marcus

French Rooster posted:

MarcusM posted:

Jason posted:

Marcus,

Out of interest, if you are looking to maximise your system performance, have you tried switching your Melco from Network mode to Direct mode which isolates it from the network.  It does make a noticeable difference, but it means you will not be able to control your streamer via the Naim app as it won't be able to access the  network. You have to control the streamer from the front panel or remote control to select tracks, but if you know what you want to listen to rather than browsing, it's great!  If you haven't tried it, I would recommend giving it a go.

 

Hi Jason!

No, I have actually never tried ”direct mode” on my Melco NAS. I really should do that some time!

So far I have been “to lazy” since it’s more complicating when you cannot use the Naim app. When I listen to music I often get ideas what to listen to next and controlling the streamer via Melco front panel or via Naim remote is not very tempting 

/Marcus

i understood that it is possible to use naim app when using direct mode for the melco.  The streamer connected to the melco via ethernet cable, the melco to switch.     Dark Bear, in nd555 impressions, explain this . 

If you are controlling the Naim streamer via the Naim app through the Melco, then the Melco is acting simply as a switch or possibly a router if it has the configurations as such, but last time  I looked I couldn’t see any such configuration, therefore i suspect it’s a acting as a regular layer 2 switch.

French Rooster posted:

Marcus, i had before the netgear switch with optional linear ps.  It was sounding softer vs the old refurbished cisco 2960 i had before. But now i have a new cisco switch and all is better sounding now: more involvement, bass, edge, body...

The cisco with your sarum ethernet cable will sound on steroids, perhaps even better if connected directly to the melco.    You will tell us i hope.

I’m having some problems deciding how to proceed.

On one hand I figure that the Melco NAS have a switch “built in”. So adding another switch will give two switches with a 1m long Ethernet cable in between. Will adding that second switch really provide increased SQ?

On the other hand, that’s what everybody are saying right? Is there any other Melco users that have found benefits by adding another switch just before the Melco?

I talked to my dealer yesterday and they recommended a “normal switch” (like my Netgear GS105) and then adding a high quality Linear Power Supply (sBooster) to the switch.

There are several options out there, no question about that!

If I were not using the Melco but instead a NAS somewhere else on my network adding a high quality switch like the Cisco 2960 would be a “no brainer”. Now I’m starting to hesitate…

I tested adding my Netgear GS105 before my Melco and couldn’t detect much of a difference in SQ. Maybe it was a little improvement, I’m not sure. I need to test some more, when I get time.

If I can hear a little improvement adding my Netgear switch, even if it’s very very small that will indicate that testing a Cisco 2960 may be worth a shot…

If not I may just go for a little bit better Ethernet cable from wall outlet to my Melco.

/Marcus

MarcusM posted:

French Rooster posted:

Marcus, i had before the netgear switch with optional linear ps.  It was sounding softer vs the old refurbished cisco 2960 i had before. But now i have a new cisco switch and all is better sounding now: more involvement, bass, edge, body...

The cisco with your sarum ethernet cable will sound on steroids, perhaps even better if connected directly to the melco.    You will tell us i hope.

I’m having some problems deciding how to proceed.

On one hand I figure that the Melco NAS have a switch “built in”. So adding another switch will give two switches with a 1m long Ethernet cable in between. Will adding that second switch really provide increased SQ?

On the other hand, that’s what everybody are saying right? Is there any other Melco users that have found benefits by adding another switch just before the Melco?

I talked to my dealer yesterday and they recommended a “normal switch” (like my Netgear GS105) and then adding a high quality Linear Power Supply (sBooster) to the switch.

There are several options out there, no question about that!

If I were not using the Melco but instead a NAS somewhere else on my network adding a high quality switch like the Cisco 2960 would be a “no brainer”. Now I’m starting to hesitate…

I tested adding my Netgear GS105 before my Melco and couldn’t detect much of a difference in SQ. Maybe it was a little improvement, I’m not sure. I need to test some more, when I get time.

If I can hear a little improvement adding my Netgear switch, even if it’s very very small that will indicate that testing a Cisco 2960 may be worth a shot…

If not I may just go for a little bit better Ethernet cable from wall outlet to my Melco.

/Marcus

i understand your doubts.  I had before the netgear gs105 too, powered by hdplex linear ps.

But now the new cisco 2960 and it’s much better.

However i have not the melco, so using the melco direct and another switch before the melco is unknown for me.   But it should be better than using the router as switch for your melco.

You should ask Bert or Dark Bear, on the nd555 impressions thread. They use the nd555 with melco.

Anyway, the cisco is cheap, if second hand, and you can return it if not satisfied.

I will have one day the nd555, with melco or innuos zenith, so i am curious too.

Gents, and remember unless the switched mode  powersupply is a particularly cheap poor quality model that ‘just about’ complies with the EMC specs there is not going to be much if any benefit in replacing it in terms of reducing noise on your mains. The real benefit comes from the physical design of the switch interfacing and it’s link clock noise. You should also check the new powersupply is designed to support your connected device such as your  switch and has the right sort of RFI/HF decoupling or your powered device is designed to be connected to plug and play powersupplies  as you otherwise could be making things worse electrically or even creating a non compliant EMC configuration.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Gents, and remember unless the switched mode  powersupply is a particularly cheap poor quality model that ‘just about’ complies with the EMC specs there is not going to be much if any benefit in replacing it in terms of reducing noise on your mains. The real benefit comes from the physical design of the switch interfacing and it’s link clock noise. You should also check the new powersupply is designed to support your connected device such as your  switch and has the right sort of RFI/HF decoupling or your powered device is designed to be connected to plug and play powersupplies  as you otherwise could be making things worse electrically or even creating a non compliant EMC configuration.

Thank you, Simon!

That make sense, even to me… 

/Marcus

Hi!

Sorry for the late feedback but finally I managed to test a Cisco 2960 in my system. I’ve had a 2 week vacation and it also took a week to take delivery of the switch after ordering. Okay, so does a switch improve SQ in my system?

Yes it does! Thank you Simon and the rest of you that suggested the Cisco 2960 .

I’ve compared “no switch” vs Netgear GS105 vs Cisco-switch.

With “no switch” as baseline I get an audible improvement by adding the Netgear switch “between” wall outlet and my Melco NAS. When exchanging the Netgear switch for the Cisco the improvement is twice as big (at least). The connection is from wall outlet: cheap “freebee” Ethernet cable from wall outlet to Cisco switch, cheap “freebee” Ethernet cable from Cisco switch to Melco NAS and finally Chord Sarum SA from Melco NAS to my Naim streamer.

I also tried to connect the switch earlier in the signal chain, after my Router but before the cable in the wall leading up to the wall outlet next to my system. Here I can also hear an improvement but I would say it’s something like half the improvement compared to the switch connected closer to my system.

So the conclusion is that I “need” the Cisco switch and it needs to be connected close before my Melco NAS. The idea now is to have a 3m long cable from wall outlet to switch, 1m cable from switch to Melco NAS and 1m cable from Melco to Naim streamer. I will hide the switch underneath the brawn-stack in my setup.

I have also made a few tests with Ethernet cables. Starting with cheap “freebee” Ethernet cables in all three positions I have tried to insert my Sarum SA in the different locations. The last meter (between Melco and ND555) is by far the most important location to my ears but I can also hear improvements in the other two locations where switch to Melco is the second most important location. Adding the Sarum SA between the wall outlet and switch also improves the SQ but less so compared to the other positions. No real surprise there…

Next step should be to borrow a couple of Ethernet cables from my dealer and experiment a little more. Will I get an improvement when using cables of a little bit better quality (instead of cheap “freebee” Ethernet cable) in all three positions simultaneously?

/Marcus

 BTW certain cheap freebie cables could be the best in your scenario, and a so called expensive consumer boutique cable might not be best for your network. . Ethernet cable is usually cheap, usually 10s of pence per metre or less.... the key thing to look for is that the cable is certified or at least stated as  Cat5e or Cat6 for example... it is usually printed on the jacket every few cms. You will find a large variability within regular cheap cables... most will ‘sound’ different from each other to some extent.... what is prefereable will be subjective.

its worth remembering at 100 Mbps, all Ethernet cable is is two serial line connections, one in each direction.

Hi

It’s great that changing routers, adding switches, powers supplies and so on to the network part of a Hifi system apparently improves sound.  I only say apparently as I have not really tinkered with that part so have no first-hand experience to comment on.

But what I don’t understand is why? It can’t be the data is somehow better, as there is error detection and recovery in use so for a large number of data packets to be lucky enough to be corrupted in such a way that they pass undetected and degrade the sound is unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely enough to make it such an edge case it can’t be a factor.

So what is it that negatively affects sound? Is it contamination of the home power ring/spur? Electrical contamination that passes through the cat5? Or something else?

I read a lot of people say that it helps, but I don’t understand how it can help.

Thanks !

Hi - for the most part its nothing to do with the data itself, see attachment below... its at a lower level of the serial clock voltage modulation. This clock is important - the more stable it is  - the less it slightly varies its frequency over short periods of time (jitter) and the less frequency intermodulation components are produced (sums and differences). These frequency components will typically couple into the receiving electronics - and be seen to modulate power lines and ground planes albeit at minuscule levels. This in itself can minutely modulate further clocks or analogue signal stages resulting in very low level noise. This what we can hear.

Therefore one wants to try and use a stable physical layer transport clock as possible. These clocks are used as the transmitting modulator in each  ethernet segment - so the switch uses its clock to modulate the framing levels in the send signal in the ethernet lead. Jitter and frequency artefacts here will couple, albeit at very low levels, into the host streamer. 

Common mode electrical noise can also couple in a similar way.

Texas Instruments, who produce most of the DAC chips Naim use, also develop ethernet drivers to specifically reduce emissions and noise.. this white paper of theirs talks about some of the considerations generally in physical construction and electronic design.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi - for the most part its nothing to do with the data itself, see attachment below... its at a lower level of the serial clock voltage modulation. This clock is important - the more stable it is  - the less it slightly varies its frequency over short periods of time (jitter) and the less frequency intermodulation components are produced (sums and differences). These frequency components will typically couple into the receiving electronics - and be seen to modulate power lines and ground planes albeit at minuscule levels. This in itself can minutely modulate further clocks or analogue signal stages resulting in very low level noise. This what we can hear.

Therefore one wants to try and use a stable physical layer transport clock as possible. These clocks are used as the transmitting modulator in each  ethernet segment - so the switch uses its clock to modulate the framing levels in the send signal in the ethernet lead. Jitter and frequency artefacts here will couple, albeit at very low levels, into the host streamer. 

Common mode electrical noise can also couple in a similar way.

Texas Instruments, who produce most of the DAC chips Naim use, also develop ethernet drivers to specifically reduce emissions and noise.. this white paper of theirs talks about some of the considerations generally in physical construction and electronic design.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

 

Cristal clear! 
Thanks Simon 

Hi

That white paper focusses on the Ethernet pysical layer, but I think in the case of sound quality we know the data already passed through and has been validated by the ethernet checshum, and also by the simpler TCP checksum, with no bit errors as otherwise we would hear nothing.

Or, are are you saying that these low leven deviations pass through the network, up through the network stack, and the applications, and all the way to the DAC where they can do some damage? And if that is the case, could a couple of fibre media converters do the job to elimiate them?

Please note that I am not at all trying to be difficult! I just like to undrstand before I thin about spending

Thanks!

Hi - no my point is this nothing to do with the data encodings - this is about physical voltages and the modulations and electromagnetic radiation from these frequency modulating voltages... kind of like the principles of FM radio.

Network checksum and other transport validation methods occur at a higher level - or at a higher abstraction level - and are about the validity of the digital data itself rather than the physical voltage modulations and the side effects from them used to convey signal, frequency and phase levels than can be suitably processed to eventually represent/signify logical/binary values in a digital data unit. 

The noise modulation foot print from the modulating physical voltages  is going to be pretty identical whether the binary values in the data units ultimately represented by these voltage modulations are in error or not... so in this regard TCP and frame checksums etc etc is irrelevant.