SuperLine Loading Thread.

Thanks Richard.

So, there will be two types of Superline Offered or is this a modification to the existing units?

quote:

in my 5,6nF plug I find 4,7nF capacitor

Hi Lyubomir,

That could be true. I measure 5.12nF on both sides of my 5.6nF cap plug. The value is both 5.6nF +/- 10% and 4.7nF +/-10%.

Jeremy

quote:

could you actually hear it overloading, with distortion and/or flattened dynamics?

I don't think it is possible to overload the Superline input with a low output MC. We're really talking about compatibility.

For the technically minded, working back from the output of the I preamp:
552 o/p level 0.775V rms
552 input level 75mV rms
552 gain: 20dB (approx)
552 input ol margin: 40dB (ie 7.5Vrms)
Superline output 7.5Vrms
Superline gain: 64dB (approx 1,500)
Input ol: 5mVrms (20dB with 500uV input)

From these specs it looks like .5mV input is the limit where input, output and preamp input are all 20dB below the overload voltage.

I think everyone will have a different description of the effect of a hot input level (be it microphone placement, mastering level etc), but for me it is an unnatural balance as if the quiet sections of the orchestra are playing too loud.

Hope this helps.

Jeremy

JeremyB--

Thanks, I would agree with that description of an overloaded input level--I've heard it in other contexts as well (for example, a step-up transformer used in conjunction with a moderate-gain MC phono stage).

Kuma, I'm running TMS2/ARO/XV1-s into 552/500/SL2. Currently my Superline is connected via HC, 500R both with and without 1nF.

As I mentioned before, everything is sounding pretty good now. My Superline got knocked around a bit by UPS, and the transport bolts loosened (but didn't come out completely). After consulting with my dealer, it appears that no damage was done, but this may be why it took my unit a while to settle down. I'm going to wait a few weeks before trying to fine tune the loading any further.

Excellent aht. Whereabouts in the great US are you?

I'm in sf from saturday for the apple dev conference -- I can bring 453 and 470 with me if anyone wants to listen on their xv1s :-)

jon

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Thanks Richard.

So, there will be two types of Superline Offered or is this a modification to the existing units?

Steve in R&D is looking into it so not sure as yet. Still work in progress...

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:

quote:

Originally posted by aht:
True enough Kuma, the general discussion has been about lower output cartridges. However, there is a general trend among even very expensive, highly-regarded cartridges for higher output than before. You can see this in many Lyra, Clearaudio, and Benz expensive cartridges, for example, and among the mid-price offerings of Allaerts and Koetsu. And certainly the Air Tight is regarded as state-of-the-art by some.

To me, the interesting question is, what is it about the Superline--and Naim phono stages in general--that makes them work only in a narrow range of cartridge output level? This is not the norm in the genre of expensive phono stages.

We are currently working on a special varaint of the Superline to accomodate low output MC cartridges with a higher output than 0.6mV, such as Clearaudio whose output is in the 0.6-0.8mV range.

Richard,
On the subject of extending the Superline's cartridge output compatability are the R&D dept. considering extending it into the realms of MM output ie. the N stageline equivalent, or is this a step too far.
I ask because my current cartridge is a Wilson Benesch Ply (Micro Benz Glider moving coil derivative)with an output of 1.58mV. This is driving a Stagline N/ Hicap 2 arrangement. Do Naim feel that the Superline is not appropriate for the MM and high output MC market?

Regards,
Graham

Graham,

right now, the answer is no on this but we wouldn't completely rule out a future MM project.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Thanks Richard.

So, there will be two types of Superline Offered or is this a modification to the existing units?

Steve in R&D is looking into it so not sure as yet. Still work in progress...

Thanks Richard.

Sorry there will not be another version of the SUPERLINE, Richard discussed this in passing with r&d thats as far as it got and now its over, sorry for suggesting otherwise.

That is a shame, many enthusiasts run more than one TT/arm, and high output MC and MM carts have their benefits.

All,

I have plugged in the 470 Ohm plug into my Superline, in place of the 500 Ohm plug.

Its not a "no brainer" for me. The music is tighter and seems to have more bass than with the 500 plug. Not sure it is better yet. Going to swap back and forthe a few times before making my mind up.

I am wondering if my non standard arm lead is having an impact. Its a special from Funk Firm called Wraith.......

David

Munch,

Its the whole hog. The Wraith cable was the final touch. I am very pleased with it! The XV1s is new so the whole set up is still getting settled.

David

Update on loading experiments with SME V / XV-1s. Peter "C" has kindly loaned me a couple of Linn 'T' cables to compare. One terminated with RCA's and the other terminated with BNC's.

First I have to say the Linn cables are the quietest I have come across. You can turn the volume on the 552 all the way up past 3.00 open loop and all you get is background hash. At listening levels up to LOUD they are completely silent open loop.

With Loading at 453R -- No capacitor I have run several swaps between RCA's and BNC's and consistently hear an improvement with the BNC's. It is not a 'maybe' thing. The sound seems to open out and become more airy with a bit more zing and attack. In general the result is also a little more impression of pace and punch.

The only slight downside over RCA's is a tad too much zizz on edgy tracks with a lot of top in them. I was in two minds whether swapping to the 470R was a better choice with BNC's to tame it down by just that fraction these occasional tracks might like, but for the vast majority of music the 453R still seems best, particularly to benefit fully from the advantage of BNC's.

I would think using BNC's it would be worthwhile looking at an 'R' value between 470R and 453R dependent on musical taste and presentation desired since both have excellent resolution and it is more a matter of tonal sharpness desired.

Whatever loading chosen though I definitely recommend going to the trouble of having your favorite Arm lead terminated in BNC's if you haven't already.

regards
Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:

Whatever loading chosen though I definitely recommend going to the trouble of having your favorite Arm lead terminated in BNC's if you haven't already.

regards
Geoff

Having been roundly chastised by my friend Mr Honeyball for having phonos on my arm lead, I'm about to Geoff!

Not yet having the 453R to try with my TKR, I've been experimenting a bit with 500R Vs. 470R, and no capacitance Vs. 1nF.

I've come to the conclusion there is an element of settling down still going on with the Superline, and the fact that my system was powered down for a while whilst my friendly dealer rearranged the black boxes to achieve a better cable arrangement.

I'd tried the 1nF a couple of weeks ago and immediately reverted to no capacitance. Horrible! Having gone from 500R to 470, I thought I'd give the 1nF another spin and although I think it sounds better without, the difference is quite subtle. I then reinstated the 500R, and again with the 1nF it sounded a little dull, but nothing like the effect of a couple of weeks ago.

The 470R does sound slightly more edgy with certain material, but I prefer its overall sound. Having the ability to change values to suit particular recordings is, err, "Interesting"!

Well I am coming down in favour of the 470R over the 500R. But it is not very obvious. However, the 470R seems slightly better at retrieving data (including surface noise and clicks).

An interesting exercise, but the 470R has won the day.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:.

I would think using BNC's it would be worthwhile looking at an 'R' value between 470R and 453R dependent on musical taste and presentation desired since both have excellent resolution and it is more a matter of tonal sharpness desired.

Geoff

I am

Also I'm convinced the plugs sound better if withdrawn a tad from the socket.

If you want to reign back a little on the 453, try removing the centre unconnected pin!

KR,

Peter

quote:

Also I'm convinced the plugs sound better if withdrawn a tad from the socket.

If you want to reign back a little on the 453, try removing the centre unconnected pin!

Peter

I presume that you have shared your views with the guys at Naim so what response have you had?

Chris

This is one of the most exciting products Naim has produced (apart form the 555 ) I found the cartridge loading effect really interesting. It was a bell curve for timing and a linear graph for Hi Fi. An overlay of the two graphs gave best performance. Lower the Ohms less Hi Fi. Higher ohms more hi fi but somewhere in there the timing shifts in and out of focus. The timing side of the graph being extremely audible down to a 10 ohm difference between loads. I was using an Avid TT with Aro and Fidelity Research FR1 Mk3 cartridge and settled on a 600ohm 1nF load.

I also tried removing the center pin of the 5 pin din plug, but in my case found the result disappointing. More spacious but the song lost its magic, groove and passion.

Great work Steve and the team. Is the King dead? Not yet I suspect.

Cheers,

Chris.

I realise majority are fixated with an XV1s, but has anyone done an extensive loading experiment on a Linn Akiva?

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Dolan:
I presume that you have shared your views with the guys at Naim so what response have you had?
Chris

I've mentioned it but with everyone so busy at present, it can wait. Anyway I will have a chance to see what they think on Tuesday 10th during the Summer Sounds Event we are holding here at the shop.

Kuma, I have six test values between 523R and 590R awaiting test here. I hope to conduct some listening tests very soon.

KR

Peter

That's cool Peter.

It seems the consensus is 560ohms/1nF, but curious to see what other settings would do. ( hopefully on an ARO, too )

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
That's cool Peter.
It seems the consensus is 560ohms/1nF, but curious to see what other settings would do. ( hopefully on an ARO, too )

Kuma

Not to sound callous however I don't have much patience for all of this experimentation (perhaps I'm lazy ). The only thing I can say is that this thing (SuperLine) is SO AMAZING that I am just going with Dr. Peters 560/1 suggestion (Akiva) so far and listening to the music. No time for loading experiments in my house - too busy listening to my records - I am going to let him to the grunt work!

Naim really have to be congratulated for such a revelatory product I stopped by my dealer yesterday to tell them that I thought this might just be the biggest upgrade I have yet to undertake.

On a side note I picked up a new 4/5 HiLine to take home and use to make comparisons between my current 552 powered SuperLine and a HiCap2/HiLine version. So far after a brief session last night I have to say that things are quite close. I am not so sure in which direction to go as it is not that clear cut. As a matter of fact I need to read some old HiLine postings to refresh my memory on break in. I seem to remember that when I inserted the HiLine on my CDS3 the effect was immediately obvious and dramatic - so far I am not that sure on this one - yet. The 552 has quite a bit going for it when powering the SuperLine - and one can save on the cost of the HiLine as an added bonus.

Gregg

Like GLEVETHAN, I can't be bothered to mess about; especially as I haven't yet gone for the Superline.

Also like him, it would suit me to power it from the 552, as is my Prefix currently, and am VERY interested in his findings in this area.

Unfortunately (for me, and possibly KUMA too), everybody on this thread seems to have a Dynavector (slight exaggeration, I'll admit).

Has anybody tried the KOETSU Black, Red or Red Sig. (all with 6uv output approx.), as Koetsus are known for their fussiness for loading.

A recently acquired Black favours my changing to a Superline (though it's pretty good with my Prefix) but I'd need to be fairly convinced from others' experience before committing myself.

Any Superline users out there with lower Koetsus?