The Hugo of streaming?

Hi Obsydian,

To expand on Hmack's response:

The mR and uR (and I believe the SoTM renderers) run in one of a number of modes that you can select. These 'modes' allow you to select which server you chose - in terms of software. The server then interacts with the application that controls it.

I find that these servers/modes do sound somewhat different.

In my case I use Logitech Media Server (LMS). My uR then runs Squeezelite, which I control remotely using either a web-browser or from my phone using Squeezer.

I would not overlook the importance of where you host the server software. It can be loaded onto a NAS, but I find this reduces the system performance. In my experience:

Vortexbox Audiostore Prestige 2 > Raspberry Pi3 > Synology NAS.

M

Mr Underhill posted:

Hi Obsydian,

To expand on Hmack's response:

The mR and uR (and I believe the SoTM renderers) run in one of a number of modes that you can select. These 'modes' allow you to select which server you chose - in terms of software. The server then interacts with the application that controls it.

I find that these servers/modes do sound somewhat different.

In my case I use Logitech Media Server (LMS). My uR then runs Squeezelite, which I control remotely using either a web-browser or from my phone using Squeezer.

 

I would not overlook the importance of where you host the server software. It can be loaded onto a NAS, but I find this reduces the system performance. In my experience:

Vortexbox Audiostore Prestige 2 > Raspberry Pi3 > Synology NAS.

M

Thanks MrUNDERHILL 

I was thinking more basic in terms of component box type setup, from Rendu to amp ...

At its simplest:

Server <<network>> (RJ45) Rendu > USB > DAC > Amp

M

Mr Underhill posted:

At its simplest:

Server <<network>> (RJ45) Rendu > USB > DAC > Amp

M

 

Could I do say ...

Tidal > Rendu > DAC > NAP250DR.

Also any suggestions what DAC folk are using.

My setup is microRendu/CIAudio VDC.7 -> Naim DAC-V1 -> NAP200. Works a threat. 

Dave

Obsydian posted:

Could I do say ...

Tidal > Rendu > DAC > NAP250DR.

Also any suggestions what DAC folk are using.

How you interact with Tidal depends on the server software you choose.

For instance:
I use Logitech Media Server, this uses a number of plugins for different functionality, at least one of which gives access to Tidal ......I use Qobuz, via another plugin.

You could host Roon on a PC/NAS/Physical Server and access Tidal that way.

There will be others I am sure.

WRT DACs, I use the Border Patrol SE. I used to have an nDAC / XPS, and these can be picked up very reasonably 2nd hand. On Audiostream they have announced they are reviewing the updated V1. Equally over the years I have also used Benchmark & Bel Canto DACs, the Benchmark DAC1 was very good, but didn't get along in a Naim system. The Hugo is well liked here and can be picked up for about £600 2nd Hand - although you may have to get the batteries updated.

M

Mr Underhill posted:

Obsydian posted:

Could I do say ...

Tidal > Rendu > DAC > NAP250DR.

Also any suggestions what DAC folk are using.

How you interact with Tidal depends on the server software you choose.

For instance:
I use Logitech Media Server, this uses a number of plugins for different functionality, at least one of which gives access to Tidal ......I use Qobuz, via another plugin.

You could host Roon on a PC/NAS/Physical Server and access Tidal that way.

There will be others I am sure.

M

You lost me at server my friend (I did say this is all newb to me) ????

I will need to take sometime and read up more, but many thanks for everyone's advise.

Obsydian,

Don't worry. One of the frustrations of IT is that the same words get re-used to mean different things.

In hardware a server is a computer that you use to run backend processes, such as databases. These usually are built to higher resilient specs.

A server can ALSO be a piece of software that serves up data, such as a stream of music; this is used/consumed by a software client.

Tidal will allow you to create a username & password to access their music, and then stream that over the internet to you. This might be to your browser (e.g. IE or Firefox), but in your case you will want to stream it to your Rendu. To do this you need some intermediary software to:

Log on to Tidal; and
Serve up the music stream in a way that can be consumed by the Rendu.

This is the 'Server' .....which in my case is LMS.

Hope this is less opaque than I fear it is!

M

dave4jazz posted:

My setup is microRendu/CIAudio VDC.7 -> Naim DAC-V1 -> NAP200. Works a threat. 

Dave

Hi Dave,

Did it make you an offer you couldn't refuse?

M

Mr Underhill posted:

dave4jazz posted:

My setup is microRendu/CIAudio VDC.7 -> Naim DAC-V1 -> NAP200. Works a threat. 

Dave

Hi Dave,

Did it make you an offer you couldn't refuse?

M

In future must be more careful to check my post spellings. :-)

Dave

Did Obsydian mention an interest in Roon?

It's not a prerequisite for streaming using the setups being discussed and will require a more powerful server processor.

Dave

Mr Underhill posted:

What DAC did you have before the Hugo 2? Any thoughts on pushing the boat out for a Blu?

Hi Mr. U,

Sorry for the late reply: we've been traveling and I haven't had as much laptop time as I would ordinarily. Probably as it should be!

At any rate, I've previously used a Chord 2Qute and before that, the DAC section of the Supernait Mk. 1. I found the Hugo 2 to be a nice improvement on my first two DACs: more vibrant and detailed, but not so much so that my beloved internet radio stations (mostly FIP!) sound crap.

I've heard rumors that Chord will be coming out with an upscaler/companion piece for the Hugo 2 and I'll be keenly interested if they do. And while the DAVE/Blue may be a bit out of my financial league at this point, I'll admit that the Hugo TT 2 looks tasty!

All the best,

Joe

Thanks guys have been reading a bit more, an interesting learning curve.

joe9407 posted:.

I've heard rumors that Chord will be coming out with an upscaler/companion piece for the Hugo 2 and I'll be keenly interested if they do. And while the DAVE/Blue may be a bit out of my financial league at this point, I'll admit that the Hugo TT 2 looks tasty!

 

Is the “upscaler/companion piece” you mention the “2go”, or something different? Unlike Dave and more recently the Qutest, Hugo 2 doesn’t have 2 BNC. That is why I wondered whether Hugo 2 might not get an upscaler — but that was guessing only, as I didn’t follow the most recent Chord “gossip”. Would be great if my “guess work” was wrong!  

Hi Timo,

The Hugo2 can interface with the dual BNC of the Blu2. The concensus of the reviews I have read are that the BluDave > BluHugo2 > Dave. Some interesting on the Blu II thread on Head-Fi.

Mt Watts has said there will be an MScalar, the debate on the thread is about the price. My suspicion is that it will be about £4k, making the MScalarHugo2 better than the Dave at about the same price, but with a glass ceiling on performance.

M

Mr Underhill posted:

Hi Timo,

The Hugo2 can interface with the dual BNC of the Blu2. The concensus of the reviews I have read are that the BluDave > BluHugo2 > Dave. Some interesting on the Blu II thread on Head-Fi.

Mt Watts has said there will be an MScalar, the debate on the thread is about the price. My suspicion is that it will be about £4k, making the MScalarHugo2 better than the Dave at about the same price, but with a glass ceiling on performance.

M

Thanks a lot Mr Underhill -- I shall do some catching up on Head Fi. :-)

Hi Timo,

I have sacked my proof reader!

M

I have now filled my spdif with twenty ferrites, and it has worked VERY well for me, as well as the PoE DC power change.

Simon has banged on about ferrites for an age and as a result I added some onto my power cords, with little or no effect. For some reason I didn’t add any onto my spdif cable. The spdif being digital means that there are no negative effects to adding ferrites, as there can be adding them to analogue cables.

I have been battling edge for over a year and have my usual suspect files for testing. Over the year a fair few of them dropped off the list as different tweaks ‘solved’ those files' issues; there are multiple overlapping issues that lead to this ‘sound’.

One of the best tweaks is the PoE using certain CAT7 cables. This leads to a relaxation in what you hear that is profound, but it still left certain recidivist files, including my bete noire, ‘Thunder Child’ from ‘War of the Worlds’. The ferrite tweak has mainly sorted these files, or at the least substantially reduced the issue.

The theories as to this effect boiled down to two, one of which is BluDave specific, the other is RF pollution.

As a result of a thread elsewhere I decided to review my system housekeeping wrt there system component positioning. Basically my system is on three shelving systems, including:

Top Shelf
ultraRendu / Iso Regen / SingXer F1 + assorted cables and LT3045 ......PLUS LPSU for my music system switch;

Middle Shelf
Pre-Amp / music system switch; and

Bottom shelf
Border Patrol SE DAC / R-Core DC30W used to power the SingXer

Other equipment is on two other racks.

....soooooo, reorganisation:


Top Shelf
ultraRendu (uR) / Iso Regen (IR) / SingXer F1 + assorted cables and LT3045;

Middle Shelf
Pre-Amp / music system switch; and

Bottom shelf
LPSU for my music system switch / R-Core DC30W used to power the SingXer / ZeroZone R-Core LPSU for uR & IR.

I also added ferrites to the DC Cables from the LPSUs.


The Effect - Initial Thoughts:
It is still bedding in, I heard subtle changes through the evening last night. There is no doubt that there is instrumentation that I am now clearly hearing that just wasn't heard by me before. Bit, the character of my system seems to have slightly shifted. Tonal density (OK, I am reaching for a way to explain in words what I am hearing!) appears to have reduced slightly, but the sound has opened out. It is easier to hear into the sound-field and follow what effects and instruments are doing. On the whole this is positive, perhaps there is some rock music that may suffer slightly, more listening required.

The Effect - Later Thoughts:
Well, I went to bed last night in high dudgeon and disgust, my system quality had taken a dive.

Sometimes changes can lead to tonal changes that raise instruments into higher relief, whilst not representing a genuine improvement; and, this is what I decided I was now hearing.

I stripped off all the small ferrites I had placed on my PoE DC Loops. The tonal weight immediately returned.

I decided to play Billy Joel, 'River of Dreams' - as I went to see him on Saturday. This is NOT a well recorded album and can be sharp in my system; this had been largely addressed by PoE and ferrites - not now. I did notice that if I added ferrites to the DC cable from the ZeroZone LPSU the issues diminished, but still not to the quality I had before.

In fact the main thing I noticed is that the feeling of relaxation that I had gained had lessened - DAMN.

So, what had changed?

1. LPSUs together on one shelf
.....could they be interacting?
2. Changed cable runs
3. DAC moved
.....My DAC had been sitting above my turntable. Now it was underneath and just above my BluRay player, AND far nearer a couple of power amps.
4. Ferrites added to DC on digital front and back end.

I removed all the ferrites from the DC cables
I swapped the LPSUs with the DAC, bringing the DAC further from the power amps and nearer the Digital front end.
Moving the LPSUs meant that the one powering my local switch needed a longer DC lead = PoE using a generic CAT7 patch lead.

......and?

As soon as I started playing 'River of Dreams' I knew the relaxed quality had returned ......phew!

......more listening under way.

M

I tried adding ferrites to the DC cable from my ZeroZone LPSU > LT3045 > uR.

NOPE.

This is a repeat of the PoE DC Loop, leads to what could be described as compression, robs the music of life and detail.

For instance:

Sting - I Hung my Head
This opens simply and in teh second verse is joined by an electronic harpsichord lightly in the background; a short while later backing singers start to lightlu sing 'la,la'.....etc.

With the ferrites in place the bass was weakened, the treble lost and the described detail was absent.

M

Are you simply threading the cable through a the rings? And is that taking off a plug and using rings close to cable diam., or oversize ones and threading through with plugs on?

All ferrites stop is common mode high frequency currents circulating along the wire(s). It is a legal requirement in some cases so as to impede and control EMC. However the levels we are talking here are I suspect well below the legal EMC thresholds. If these beads affect the sound in any way then you are experiencing the effects of RFI on your audio system... however if you prefer the sound from your system with radio  frequency noise .. then arguably you could say it not RF  interference as the RF noise distortion is adding to your enjoyment. RF noise can have wierd  effects on audio circuits and how we hear the audio from them.

Hi M,

When the uR/IR are out of warranty I aim to repackage  them with the LPS-1.2 and its feeder supply into a single chassis ( a bit like the Signature Rendu).

If you had a spare one (that you could use as a Faraday cage) big enough to accommodate your little boxes and cables, ZeroZone>LT3045s>uR>IR, you could try it to out to see if it helps?

B.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

All ferrites stop is common mode high frequency currents circulating along the wire(s). If these beads affect the sound in any way then you are experiencing the effects of RFI on your audio system... 

Think it is an oversimplifycation to suggest it all comes down to RFI. Beads are changing the EM propagation characteristics of the transmission line and thus changing the signalwaveform.  They might have a negative effect on the "signal-integrity" leading to a less enjoyable sound.......... 

In general, I think the importance and effect of transmission-lines (cabling) on signal integrity are underrated and need more attention.

Peter

Innocent Bystander posted:

Are you simply threading the cable through a the rings? And is that taking off a plug and using rings close to cable diam., or oversize ones and threading through with plugs on?

Hi IB,

They are clip on ferrites, not circular one that you wrap the cable around.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

All ferrites stop is common mode high frequency currents circulating along the wire(s). It is a legal requirement in some cases so as to impede and control EMC. However the levels we are talking here are I suspect well below the legal EMC thresholds. If these beads affect the sound in any way then you are experiencing the effects of RFI on your audio system... however if you prefer the sound from your system with radio  frequency noise .. then arguably you could say it not RF  interference as the RF noise distortion is adding to your enjoyment. RF noise can have wierd  effects on audio circuits and how we hear the audio from them.

Hi Simon,

If you fancy a trip over to Head-Fi in their high end hifi forum they have a thread on the Blu II which is mainly about ferrites - you might enjoy it.

In this case I just find it interesting that these ferrites are on a DC cable.

I absolutely agree that RF, and I suspect other pollution, can act like spice; that is to some it will be welcome, to others not so much.

However, I am not sure that what I am hearing with a DC cable is quiet this straight forward, either way I thought the downside far outweighed any subtle positives.

M