ND555/252 vs NDS/552, Which Is Best? Only One Way To Find Out - Fight!

nigelb posted:

Yes Bert, that thought had crossed my mind too. But the 552 is sounding so good in my system and it is an absolutely mint example and it is so rare to find one, plus the dealer is offering a more than fair trade in for my 252/SuperCapDR, it seems a bit of a no brainer. I am also easily confused when faced with alternatives!

The ND555 will always be there and who knows, ex demo or pre loved examples may start to appear making the acquisition more affordable.

Yes Nigel,

This would also be my advise, if the ND555 is anyhow on your map, it is more important to get the 552 as it's really special. Only if it would be a one or the other I would still argue to test it out. As both the ND555 and the 552 are special. The 552 is a piece of equipment I think nobody regrets to have bought. Only bettered by the statement, for who has the funds.

Source first but which source, many of us have more than one, 552 will serve all...vinly, CD, streaming

digital sources will come and go.... 552 is end game.

Nigel, sounds like you are going through this the right way and this is likely to lead to long term satisfaction. I have 552/NDS and though I know the ND555 is probably better, in my active setup, I don't believe I'm missing much. Of course, curiosity will probably get the better of me at some point and I will probably home dem the ND555, but there is really no hurry because my current setup is sounding mighty fine. If you decide for sure you are going for the 552 -- then congratulations in advance!! of course I would still be saying the same had you decided to go with ND555 first...

enjoy/ken

Hi Nigel, Thank you for your thoughtful  insights. I’ve just returned a Rega Aura phonostage and am listening to some of the same music again with the Aria phonostage. It would be fair to say the differences largely are that the Aura makes everything much more natural sounding. Sustained oboe notes sounded sweeter, more intense and textured for instance. Bass notes whether guitar or drums revealed the instrument’s character. Vocals sweeter sounding in the best possible sense. Brass shone.

I wonder whether the 552 would have that effect with my existing sources or whether the limitation of the source would just become more apparent?

I feel my CDX2 + nDAC + PS555DR into 252 + SuperCap DR is pretty good, and probably better than the vinyl (RP10/Aphelion into Aria). Full SL. I’m hoping to try Superline with Air plugs. 

Don't suppose you live within a few hours of Gloucester.

Phil

Filipe posted:

Hi Nigel, Thank you for your thoughtful  insights. I’ve just returned a Rega Aura phonostage and am listening to some of the same music again with the Aria phonostage. It would be fair to say the differences largely are that the Aura makes everything much more natural sounding. Sustained oboe notes sounded sweeter, more intense and textured for instance. Bass notes whether guitar or drums revealed the instrument’s character. Vocals sweeter sounding in the best possible sense. Brass shone.

I wonder whether the 552 would have that effect with my existing sources or whether the limitation of the source would just become more apparent?

I feel my CDX2 + nDAC + PS555DR into 252 + SuperCap DR is pretty good, and probably better than the vinyl (RP10/Aphelion into Aria). Full SL. I’m hoping to try Superline with Air plugs. 

Don't suppose you live within a few hours of Gloucester.

Phil

The great thing about upgrading your pre amp is that it will benefit both your CD and TT sources. Although I have no direct experience of either the CDX2 or the RP10, I suspect the 552 would show them at their very best, rather than highlight any shortcomings.

Of course you know the only way to find out is to do a home dem. The dealer dem did not show the full capability of the 552, so a home dem is essential IMHO. As others have said, don't dem the 552 unless you have the finance, but if you can find a pre loved one, it makes things less of a financial stretch.

Sorry, I hail from Buckinghamshire so a long way from Gloucestershire.

Good luck.

I had CDX2/555ps when I upgraded from 282/SC to 552. Good though the CDX2/555 is, until I got the 552 I was never fully convinced by its replay of classical music, the 552 improved the CD replay considerably. Not as much as it improved vinyl replay but that might have been helped by the freeing up of the supercap to power my superline.

Nigel and Yeti, I tried Naim’s loan 552DR for a week earlier in the year. What it showed was that HiFi Racks weren’t good enough, but that is now largely sorted by the addition of Naim isolation glass, cups and ball bearings, better spacing etc. As the 252 with isolation shelves I demoed sounded better than the 552 without I went that way from my 282. It was £3k against £11k approximately for a new 552DR, some of the saving being from keeping the SuperCap DR.

I’m sure if I had taken the plunge I’d be even happier, but I am actually feeling in a good place with the digital. However, the Aura exposed what is missing from the Aria, which is still a very good phonostage for the money. 

So just curious as to what differences the preamp upgrade can do. 

Phil

Phil,

As you know we have an almost identical support system (hifi racks with Fraim glass and cups / balls). 

I took the decision the other day to rebuild the racks as I was concerned to hear my NDS decoupling system (brass plate etc) rattling when I walked past the rack!

The solution was to attach longer spikes to the bottom level of the rack (feet) so that the legs are slightly suspended above the carpet with the longer spikes properly seated in the chipboard below the carpet.

Before, the spikes were going through the carpet but were not properly seated on the base floor hence the lack of proper isolation at the base of each rack; it was effectively sitting on top of the carpet.

Now when I walk past the NDS is silent and the performance of the system is tighter and more coherent.

I only mention it in case your hifi rack support system is similarly seated on the floor.

Kind regards

David

Like the 252, to get the best from a 552, the set up needs to be spot on. I have a full fat Fraim, SL full loom with Powerlines and cables (particularly Burndies) carefully dressed. I have also paid attention to my LAN set up.

This was all done when the 252 was in place and I am sure that I am especially hearing the benefits of careful set up with the 552.

S3 posted:

Phil,

As you know we have an almost identical support system (hifi racks with Fraim glass and cups / balls). 

I took the decision the other day to rebuild the racks as I was concerned to hear my NDS decoupling system (brass plate etc) rattling when I walked past the rack!

The solution was to attach longer spikes to the bottom level of the rack (feet) so that the legs are slightly suspended above the carpet with the longer spikes properly seated in the chipboard below the carpet.

Before, the spikes were going through the carpet but were not properly seated on the base floor hence the lack of proper isolation at the base of each rack; it was effectively sitting on top of the carpet.

Now when I walk past the NDS is silent and the performance of the system is tighter and more coherent.

I only mention it in case your hifi rack support system is similarly seated on the floor.

Kind regards

David

Hi David, That is a good point you make. I have long spikes on the left and more conical on the other on screed. No rattles, but who knows. My room is designed for social use (non negotiable). But it’s sounding really good. Seem to remember we are 30 miles apart. You are welcome to visit.

Phil

I made the move to a 552DR just over a year ago, from that very helpful team of gents in Suffolk. I use it with reasonably specced LP12 plus a Uniti as a further source, in an adjacent room for occasional CD and more frequent radio. It simply stops you pondering 'what am I missing' and constantly surprises you of its capabilities. Since I have had it, my interest has been more pointed to the music and less into the whole pursuit of 'what hi-fi is really best for me'

. 

yeti42 posted:

I had CDX2/555ps when I upgraded from 282/SC to 552. Good though the CDX2/555 is, until I got the 552 I was never fully convinced by its replay of classical music, the 552 improved the CD replay considerably. Not as much as it improved vinyl replay but that might have been helped by the freeing up of the supercap to power my superline.

I concur with this.. though I enjoy the CDX2 native... the 552DR really shows what it can do... to be fair the 252DR was no slouch in showing off the CDX2 either... but I felt the combo with my 282 was never the best. FWIW again with my Hugo mk1, I always raved  about that ... but it wasn’t until I got the 552 that I went from fascinated to mesmerised (recording permitting)...  tend to focus more on music and media  now and appetite for tweaks and upgrades has mostly gone...afraid of upsetting the balance of what I have.

So are we saying that source deficiencies are reduced by a better preamp or that the improved presentation of the 552 DR masks the deficiencies better?

So I know the Aura has much less background noise and is much more responsive (harmonic mix) making an almost natural sound. So will the 552 achieve this with the Aura?

Phil

Filipe posted:

S3 posted:

Phil,

As you know we have an almost identical support system (hifi racks with Fraim glass and cups / balls). 

I took the decision the other day to rebuild the racks as I was concerned to hear my NDS decoupling system (brass plate etc) rattling when I walked past the rack!

The solution was to attach longer spikes to the bottom level of the rack (feet) so that the legs are slightly suspended above the carpet with the longer spikes properly seated in the chipboard below the carpet.

Before, the spikes were going through the carpet but were not properly seated on the base floor hence the lack of proper isolation at the base of each rack; it was effectively sitting on top of the carpet.

Now when I walk past the NDS is silent and the performance of the system is tighter and more coherent.

I only mention it in case your hifi rack support system is similarly seated on the floor.

Kind regards

David

Hi David, That is a good point you make. I have long spikes on the left and more conical on the other on screed. No rattles, but who knows. My room is designed for social use (non negotiable). But it’s sounding really good. Seem to remember we are 30 miles apart. You are welcome to visit.

Phil

Looking good Phil!

This shows how the racks are now slightly elevated above the carpet with the longer spikes. Apologies to the OP for the slight diversion; although there is a 252 in there so might be forgiven!.

Don't apologise for the diversion - nice to see some system pics.

Hi Nigel,

I had the opportunity to make an extended home demo on a fairly similar topic. In a NDS/555DR-552DR-500 System with Lumina cables on Fraim, the question was whether we should replace the NDS with a ND555 or update the 500 to DR spec. Everybody involved was convinced that the exchange of the streamer would have a much bigger impact on the whole system. And the ND555 was very good, it was indeed no subtle change. But exchanging the 500 for a 500DR provided almost as much of an improvement in resolution, clarity, dynamics and fun. I was very surprised and decided to get the 500 updated first. Of course, both ND555 and 500DR together were so much better again, but that has to wait for next year's budget if I am lucky.

I was surprised. I guess the moral of the story is that the 'source first' dogma is just not always true. If the details get lost in your amplification, an excellent source can only do so much. Since you have a DR power amp already, you might have less of a problem with that.

Jorg

Hi Jorg,

Very interesting and our experiences show that system balance is all and that source is important but not the be all and end all, although I do consider the pre amp as a fundamental element of the source. I have heard that DRing a 500 makes a huge difference so I am not surprised by your findings and cheaper than a ND555, even with a trade-in on your NDS.

My loan 552 is a non-DR model and if I go for it I will have it DR'd and serviced at the same time in a couple of years, spreading the cost nicely. My 250 is a DR model but of course not a patch on a non-DR 500. I am just amazed at the ultimate capability of the 250DR although I do occasionally hear it struggling when the music gets loud and complex.

But frankly 95% of the time the little 250DR does a fine job and upgrading my power amp can wait a little, although I realise that it is now a limiting factor, as are my speakers. It also makes sense to upgrade speakers and power amp together to ensure they are a good acoustic match and power supply and demand are in synch.

Will this treadmill never end? Not while I get increasing enjoyment from my music it won't.

I shall just have to ask for another 552DR demo before buying a better phono stage!

Phil

Yes the dr power amp upgrade is massive...

but the jump from NDS to ND555 is a big one..,

Tough choice.... but it would still be the ND555

Hi Nigel

congratulations on your highly likely impending acquisition 

i have enjoyed your posts over the last two years when I joined in and this one as well

looking forward to learning more about the 552 as I’m sure you will share your valuable insights

im in the midst of considering one myself

my view, which I have stated here before, is that 'source first' needs to be a little more nuanced. Probably a tighter 'rule' is: a system is only as good as its weakest link. The trick, of course, is to determine, for any given system/room etc, what the 'weakest link' is.  Dealer/user experience, home dem … etc can help here. As I recall, source first comes from the fact that the components up the chain tend(ed) to be more tightly tolerance than those further down -- but this is very general, and specific circumstances/setup/preferences, can easily topple this approach.

enjoy/ken

Very interesting and not entirely surprising result from my perspective. I never thought the NDS was in any way bad but that the ND555 was much better albeit at a price, but the 'weakest-link' concept is not always the source and the Pre is very important, despite many attempts to find a way around it.

It is the first high-gain stage in the system (leaving aside any RIAA flat-gain stage) and I've always found it more critical than I wanted or wished it to be, but the facts were the facts and the Pre is very important in giving you that footing into a secure transparent presentation of music which is difficult to make up for earlier or later.

I've been here myself with the 552 to S1 Pre difference and it still applies. The 552 looks like a bargain by comparison and you will enjoy it for many years as other items may get changed-out and in the Pre gives that feeling of confidence into the performance that everything is being allowed to work without undue strain.

Congratulations and enjoy!

DB.

Congratulations Nigel. A very sensible try out. 

It's impossible to go wrong with a 552. It's as compelling at it is expensive!

Plenty of NDS 552 combinations out there, all singing like angels. Mine did.

I'm following your steps Nigel.

I just ordered a NAC552 

Let's hope I'll get it before Christmas!
It isn't in stock at Focal's. So it'll come from Salisbury. 

Congratulations TomSer. My demo 552 seems to get better each day. Yours will go very nicely with your 300DR.

I will give my final assessment on this thread in the next couple of days, but I am still enjoying the music too much at the moment.