ND555/252 vs NDS/552, Which Is Best? Only One Way To Find Out - Fight!

So in fact which system sounds better into say a pair of Allaes or SL2 or even the dynaudio Emit speakers 

ND555 with Supernait 2

or

ND5xs 2 with 552/500

as much as I love the big amps, for sheer musicality I wouldn’t hestitate to buy the ND555 and SN2/Hicap Dr

Source first every time. But don't think downstream components have no effect. Nothing is black and white. And for greatest transparency, you'll need an amp to fully exploit the source.

Every Naim pre and power I've heard down the years has added a signature of some sort to the presentation. Apart from the 552/500, which appears to add nothing - although I'm sure Statement owners will have something to say about that.

As ever, trust your ears. And only yours.

analogmusic posted:

So in fact which system sounds better into say a pair of Allaes or SL2 or even the dynaudio Emit speakers 

ND555 with Supernait 2

or

ND5xs 2 with 552/500

as much as I love the big amps, for sheer musicality I wouldn’t hestitate to buy the ND555 and SN2/Hicap Dr

I hear where you are coming from and deep down I am a committed source first bloke. But your comparison is stretching that concept too far IMV. There is a point where 'system balance' takes over form 'source first'.

My comparison was far less extreme than yours i.e. ND555/252DR/300DR vs NDS/552/300DR, both into Titan 707. Even with the less than ideal listening room at the dealers, it was clear to me that the 552 was pulling everything together better, and that the 252 appeared to be holding the ND555 back a little too much for me.

YMMV.

Interestingly at the excellent Suffolk show the other week one of the Naim/Focal reps offered a slight variation on source first.  The really excellent Naim ND5X/2/SN2(HC)/Focal Kanta was clearly not source first - at least in cost terms - but the chap said that the best philosophy was to select the best speakers for your listening environment and then gradually upgrade your electronics to optimize performance.   

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Interestingly at the excellent Suffolk show the other week one of the Naim/Focal reps offered a slight variation on source first.  The really excellent Naim ND5X/2/SN2(HC)/Focal Kanta was clearly not source first - at least in cost terms - but the chap said that the best philosophy was to select the best speakers for your listening environment and then gradually upgrade your electronics to optimize performance.   

Regards,

Lindsay

So when are you going to pull the trigger on a set of Kudos Titans then, Lindsay?

Hi I have just seen this thread ......... I had an NDS/552 and auditioned ND555 with 252 ......... I could tell the ND555 was good - but overall it did not match the NDS/552 combination. As you mentioned the ND555 with the 552 is pretty special. So - I would go with a 552 initially.....or a pre loved 552 with a new ND555!

we all listen to what we like in our music, and hence this accounts for different decisions.

A real opener for me was the audioquest dragonfly red, no matter which amplifier I tested this one, from my car, Yamaha HT amp, 282/250 all the way to 552/500, I could hear what a wonderful source it was.

and then when I auditioned a Chord Dave vs a Chord Hugo TT on a 172/250.2, with Dynaudio Confidence speakers (the cables were Nordost, I would add) the Dave was so audibly superior to the Hugo, I lost there and then all my desire to ever upgrade my Naim amplifier, and spent all my money on a Chord Dave.

Yes the Dave sounds a little better on 552/500 systems I have heard, but still a Dave, and it is all about allocation of money.... I have no regrets about the money I spent on my source.

sorry to be contrarian, it just feel it's another view to the mighty 552, which I still admire, but in no way am I motivated to buy one.

I'm being in admiration of a future Lp12 or Rega Planar 8 in my home, also the Hugo Mscaler for my Dave, and also a nice front end like Aurender for my Chord Dave... once when all these are purchased will I even think about a 552... and if it never happens I love my 282/250 very much if it my last amplifier.... 

I love sources much much more than amps....

the other experience I had which was ear opening was hearing the effect of different streamers on an Unitiqute !

The auralic aries sounded different to the qute's own internal streamer (when used with the qute dac) which sounded different, to a Linn digital out.

These were not small differences, they were big,  audible musical and hi-fi differences.

There is a reason why Nain spent a huge amount of time and money on developing the NP800 network card for the new range of streamers, and introducing new techniques like LVDS (low voltage differential signalling) as well and make the card RAM much larger.... the clocks on the ND555 are much better than the ones on the NDS and NDAC. The old NDAC/NDS clocks were using 10 fixed clock rates to match the input and output digital streams when going into the RAM buffers. The clock on the ND555 is variable and is able to adjust it's frequency to more precisely match the incoming digital stream ! 

The ND555 is really a wonderful piece of engineering, and sounds extremely good to my humble ears.

There is a white paper on the Naim website, which explains all this, but in the end we all listen to music to our preference.

I was also pleasantly shocked to hear the effect of different streams on a Mscaler/Dave combination, so that is why for me personally only when all the front end is sorted out, is it worth upgrading an amp from 282 or 252 levels.

I've read on this form of ND555 being paired with 5000 GBP Melco devices, and it might sound completely over the top, but unfortunately it makes a difference.

Lp12 also, there are Majik LP12 and KLimax (20,000 GBP) LP12.... all this costs money, and unfortunately some have to choose. I'm not convinced at all the preamp is the heart of a Naim system.... 

If a 252 holds back an ND555 (something which I find extremely difficult to believe, having heard a 252 many times now), then what about NACA5?

I would say the NACA5 cabling is the weak link in a Naim system, and Superlumina really opens up the resolution.

nigelb posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Interestingly at the excellent Suffolk show the other week one of the Naim/Focal reps offered a slight variation on source first.  The really excellent Naim ND5X/2/SN2(HC)/Focal Kanta was clearly not source first - at least in cost terms - but the chap said that the best philosophy was to select the best speakers for your listening environment and then gradually upgrade your electronics to optimize performance.   

Regards,

Lindsay

So when are you going to pull the trigger on a set of Kudos Titans then, Lindsay?

Well.....................urm.................

Tell you what Nigel, I heard a few fully tricked out LP12s with a NAD 3020 and Mission 770 down stream. Systems like that were practically a cliche, but they did tend to sound very musical. However, once the source was topped up, the amps and speakers tended to get upgraded and although, given similar circumstances and constraints, I would pump up the source, not many people I knew fully appreciated what their TTs could do until the downstream components were improved. But I guess we've all got to start somewhere.

Upgrades involving the 552 don't tend to warrant such comparisons. It's special. It doesn't so easily fit into the cold logic of source driven system hierarchy. And you used your ears in your own listening room.  That's worth more than all the ears in the world. It may have swung the other way. Maybe in my lounge, it would? I don't think so, but I don't know.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Interestingly at the excellent Suffolk show the other week one of the Naim/Focal reps offered a slight variation on source first.  The really excellent Naim ND5X/2/SN2(HC)/Focal Kanta was clearly not source first - at least in cost terms - but the chap said that the best philosophy was to select the best speakers for your listening environment and then gradually upgrade your electronics to optimize performance.   

Regards,

Lindsay

That accords with my view, that the speakers define the character of the sound in the room more than any other component, so getting speakers that suit your own ears/taste/expectation  is key to maximising enjoyment. And of course that means in the room, although with most rooms at least some adjustment is possible, while some speakers seem to be more consistent across rooms than others. Unusual coming from a Naim rep - but perhaps he was a Focal rep...

I think I need to clarify that my mission was to establish the biggest bang for my buck from the purchase of one component as an upgrade to my present system, a ND555 or  pre loved 552. Together they sounded sublime but I have neither the funds nor inclination to buy them together at this point in time. I hope, but cannot be sure, I will part-exchange my wonderful NDS for a ND555 some time in the future.

Undoubtedly the ND555 is a stunning bit of kit, surely one of the finest streamers on the market today. But, although I can't be sure, I felt I was not hearing enough of the full potential of the ND555 with the 252DR pre. For less than the cost of a ND555 (used with a 252DR), a pre loved 552 was giving me more (used with a NDS/PS555DR). Simple as that, and that in no way belittles the ultimate ability of the ND555.

I have only heard Chord's Dave (with and without M-scaler) at hi fi shows, and I would never make a final judgement until I hear such an expensive bit of kit at home in my system and my room. So I have no real opinion other than the Dave (and M-Scaler) sounded pretty good at these shows, but so what.

One final point is that the dealer demo and home demo were conducted with full SL looms other than the dealer was using NACA5 speaker cables.

There is little point in trying to 'convert' others to your view, and why one component/system sounds better than another. It is interesting to hear the views of others assuming those views are based on actual listening experiences, although I never take too seriously HiFi show demos. But that is as far as it should go. From there you have to listen for yourself and make up your own mind. There are still one or two dogmatic views on this forum, where I read opinions stated as facts. Occasionally, even facts put forward without the hard listening experience to back them up.

Different opinions are good, we all have differing sets of preferences/judgements and thank goodness we do as we would all have identical systems from the same manufacturer allowing no choice. How boring!

Vive la difference! 

Do we match speakers to rooms or rooms to speakers? Probably a discussion for another time. 

nigelb posted:

I think I need to clarify that my mission was to establish the biggest bang for my buck from the purchase of one component as an upgrade to my present system, a ND555 or  pre loved 552. Together they sounded sublime but I have neither the funds nor inclination to buy them together at this point in time. I hope, but cannot be sure, I will part-exchange my wonderful NDS for a ND555 some time in the future.

Undoubtedly the ND555 is a stunning bit of kit, surely one of the finest streamers on the market today. But, although I can't be sure, I felt I was not hearing enough of the full potential of the ND555 with the 252DR pre. For less than the cost of a ND555 (used with a 252DR), a pre loved 552 was giving me more (used with a NDS/PS555DR). Simple as that, and that in no way belittles the ultimate ability of the ND555.

I have only heard Chord's Dave (with and without M-scaler) at hi fi shows, and I would never make a final judgement until I hear such an expensive bit of kit at home in my system and my room. So I have no real opinion other than the Dave (and M-Scaler) sounded pretty good at these shows, but so what.

One final point is that the dealer demo and home demo were conducted with full SL looms other than the dealer was using NACA5 speaker cables.

There is little point in trying to 'convert' others to your view, and why one component/system sounds better than another. It is interesting to hear the views of others assuming those views are based on actual listening experiences, although I never take too seriously HiFi show demos. But that is as far as it should go. From there you have to listen for yourself and make up your own mind. There are still one or two dogmatic views on this forum, where I read opinions stated as facts. Occasionally, even facts put forward without the hard listening experience to back them up.

Different opinions are good, we all have differing sets of preferences/judgements and thank goodness we do as we would all have identical systems from the same manufacturer allowing no choice. How boring!

Vive la difference! 

Rock on Nigelb. This is the most sensible way to upgrade. I looked at DR upgrades at some preamp power supplies, and if you spend the  money, but then want to sell on, it can be a big loss versus the original ex demo dr version. With a 552.....it’s keeper, so nothing to lose.

Nigel my posts are not written in any effort to challenge your decisions, more to present both sides of the view, source first or preamp first.... One thing for sure we agree that we love our Naim amplifiers, and I can't see myself ever going away from Naim for my amplifiers, but having owned Naim amps for close to a decade now, and knowing how they sound, I'm discovering the world of sources now.... my ears and mind being opened by my recent purchase of audio quest dragonfly red at 200 US dollars, it's truly a superb piece of engineering for a very reasonable amount of money.... and that's where I discovered there is not really a "naim sound", it's the sound of music.... 

but congratulations on the 552 ! The NDS is a world class source, and it is extremely good.

analogmusic posted:

Nigel my posts are not written in any effort to challenge your decisions, more to present both sides of the view, source first or preamp first.... One thing for sure we agree that we love our Naim amplifiers, and I can't see myself ever going away from Naim for my amplifiers, but having owned Naim amps for close to a decade now, and knowing how they sound, I'm discovering the world of sources now.... my ears and mind being opened by my recent purchase of audio quest dragonfly red at 200 US dollars, it's truly a superb piece of engineering for a very reasonable amount of money.... and that's where I discovered there is not really a "naim sound", it's the sound of music.... 

but congratulations on the 552 ! The NDS is a world class source, and it is extremely good.

Wow, amazing what USD200 will get you these days, and no power supply needed!

I have found the only true test of anything approaching the ultimate capability of Naim amps, or any component for that matter, is an extended demo at home, assuming you already own suitable accompanying components. I only get hints of what a Naim amp can do at HiFi shows, restricted usually by poor listening rooms and unfamiliar music. Dealer dems can also only tell you so much.

You say you know Naim amplifiers.  I am not trying to be clever here but I am interested to know if you have actually heard a 552 with a competent source/power amp/speakers in your home for an extended period? 

Since. Don’t have a streamer I am using an Ak sp1000 connected to 552 with a cheap cable and it is not that far off from a cd555/SL interconnect duo...

You can get away with a dap playing to 552....  can you get away with a nd555 playing to 2000£ pre/power?

nigelb posted:

I think I need to clarify that my mission was to establish the biggest bang for my buck from the purchase of one component as an upgrade to my present system, a ND555 or  pre loved 552. Together they sounded sublime but I have neither the funds nor inclination to buy them together at this point in time. I hope, but cannot be sure, I will part-exchange my wonderful NDS for a ND555 some time in the future.

Undoubtedly the ND555 is a stunning bit of kit, surely one of the finest streamers on the market today. But, although I can't be sure, I felt I was not hearing enough of the full potential of the ND555 with the 252DR pre. For less than the cost of a ND555 (used with a 252DR), a pre loved 552 was giving me more (used with a NDS/PS555DR). Simple as that, and that in no way belittles the ultimate ability of the ND555.

I have only heard Chord's Dave (with and without M-scaler) at hi fi shows, and I would never make a final judgement until I hear such an expensive bit of kit at home in my system and my room. So I have no real opinion other than the Dave (and M-Scaler) sounded pretty good at these shows, but so what.

One final point is that the dealer demo and home demo were conducted with full SL looms other than the dealer was using NACA5 speaker cables.

There is little point in trying to 'convert' others to your view, and why one component/system sounds better than another. It is interesting to hear the views of others assuming those views are based on actual listening experiences, although I never take too seriously HiFi show demos. But that is as far as it should go. From there you have to listen for yourself and make up your own mind. There are still one or two dogmatic views on this forum, where I read opinions stated as facts. Occasionally, even facts put forward without the hard listening experience to back them up.

Different opinions are good, we all have differing sets of preferences/judgements and thank goodness we do as we would all have identical systems from the same manufacturer allowing no choice. How boring!

Vive la difference! 

Well put Nigel. You have absolutely made the right decision I reckon. I still hear what the 552 brings to my system every time I listen to it and in my experience it’s not the same kind of improvement as 250 to 300, 300 to 500, 282 to 252, NDX to NDS etc., obvious though all those upgrades are I’d describe them mostly in HiFi terms such as improved soundstage, timing, imaging, bass depth, control etc.. What the 552 seems to give is simply a better, more believable impression of real music. enjoy 

Kevin, your last sentence is a perfect summary of what a 552 does and I couldn't have put it better. A 'more believable impression of real music' sounds such a simple idea, but we all know how elusive this is and how difficult it is to achieve. Unfortunately this 'simple trick' comes at a price, but when you hear it, I believe it is well worth it!

nigelb posted:

analogmusic posted:

Nigel my posts are not written in any effort to challenge your decisions, more to present both sides of the view, source first or preamp first.... One thing for sure we agree that we love our Naim amplifiers, and I can't see myself ever going away from Naim for my amplifiers, but having owned Naim amps for close to a decade now, and knowing how they sound, I'm discovering the world of sources now.... my ears and mind being opened by my recent purchase of audio quest dragonfly red at 200 US dollars, it's truly a superb piece of engineering for a very reasonable amount of money.... and that's where I discovered there is not really a "naim sound", it's the sound of music.... 

but congratulations on the 552 ! The NDS is a world class source, and it is extremely good.

Wow, amazing what USD200 will get you these days, and no power supply needed!

I have found the only true test of anything approaching the ultimate capability of Naim amps, or any component for that matter, is an extended demo at home, assuming you already own suitable accompanying components. I only get hints of what a Naim amp can do at HiFi shows, restricted usually by poor listening rooms and unfamiliar music. Dealer dems can also only tell you so much.

You say you know Naim amplifiers.  I am not trying to be clever here but I am interested to know if you have actually heard a 552 with a competent source/power amp/speakers in your home for an extended period? 

Yes I am fortunate enough to have heard 500 systems hundreds of times in my neighbors home... I guess I am very lucky.

I still maintain what I heard, there are parts of a digital front end to be sorted out first

Server

Streamer

Network Switch

Ethernet cables

DAC

Only when these are optimized then is it worth it for me to look at amplification. I can't hear the NAC552 could possibly add what an Mscaler adds to a Chord Dave...

In Naims own words, if a NAC 552 is better than a 282, it is only because it does less harm to the music. It doesn't and cannot add anything to the source, it can only degrade the source and you are paying more for a NAC 552 to do less damage to the source, but it is very much the same source that you are listening to through a NAC 552 or a NAC 252.

The 282/250DR is good enough for me, and I am seeking excellence in my sources, not in amplification any more.

Congratulations Nigel. I have avoided listening to a 552 since it was launched as I have no realistic chance to own one. But in my ignorance I am more than happy to slum it with my 252. I know that illusion would be shattered if I heard one...

I enjoyed your music related description of what it did for your listening pleasure. Surely better than all that upper mid or bass slam mumbo jumbo.

Stu

analogmusic posted:

nigelb posted:

analogmusic posted:

Nigel my posts are not written in any effort to challenge your decisions, more to present both sides of the view, source first or preamp first.... One thing for sure we agree that we love our Naim amplifiers, and I can't see myself ever going away from Naim for my amplifiers, but having owned Naim amps for close to a decade now, and knowing how they sound, I'm discovering the world of sources now.... my ears and mind being opened by my recent purchase of audio quest dragonfly red at 200 US dollars, it's truly a superb piece of engineering for a very reasonable amount of money.... and that's where I discovered there is not really a "naim sound", it's the sound of music.... 

but congratulations on the 552 ! The NDS is a world class source, and it is extremely good.

Wow, amazing what USD200 will get you these days, and no power supply needed!

I have found the only true test of anything approaching the ultimate capability of Naim amps, or any component for that matter, is an extended demo at home, assuming you already own suitable accompanying components. I only get hints of what a Naim amp can do at HiFi shows, restricted usually by poor listening rooms and unfamiliar music. Dealer dems can also only tell you so much.

You say you know Naim amplifiers.  I am not trying to be clever here but I am interested to know if you have actually heard a 552 with a competent source/power amp/speakers in your home for an extended period? 

Yes I am fortunate enough to have heard 500 systems hundreds of times in my neighbors home... I guess I am very lucky.

I still maintain what I heard, there are parts of a digital front end to be sorted out first

Server

Streamer

Network Switch

Ethernet cables

DAC

Only when these are optimized then is it worth it for me to look at amplification. I can't hear the NAC552 could possibly add what an Mscaler adds to a Chord Dave...

In Naims own words, if a NAC 552 is better than a 282, it is only because it does less harm to the music. It doesn't and cannot add anything to the source, it can only degrade the source and you are paying more for a NAC 552 to do less damage to the source, but it is very much the same source that you are listening to through a NAC 552 or a NAC 252.

The 282/250DR is good enough for me, and I am seeking excellence in my sources, not in amplification any more.

 

The pre-amp is an extension of your source. And it’s has a great impact on the quality. At some point in time everybody should consider it in the upgrade process.

Bert Schurink posted:

The pre-amp is an extension of your source. And it’s has a great impact on the quality. At some point in time everybody should consider it in the upgrade process.

And so I did 

The next step, of course, will be the ND555.

I'm glad I started with the NAC552. That way I'll be able to enjoy the full potential of the nDAC + 555PS + Super Lumina "Full Loom", before switching to ND555.

An interesting path before stepping into a 2/3 of a 500 series system.

Nigelb , I am interested to know how much toe you have on your speakers and whether you have changed it for the 552. 

Phil

Phil, I have kept the speakers in exactly the same position with the arrival of the 552. Although they are a large, rear ported design, they are very forgiving and can be used quite close to walls is smaller than average listening rooms (mine is about 3m x 4m). They are well toed in so that the front baffles directly face the listening position.