Roon.... brilliant

When iTunes release at 2001, argument between file folder based and metadata DB based organization never stops. They all have Pros and Cons.

With Roon I still keep music file folders structure in NAS unchanged, then let Roon build its own metadata DB. I also can use other program to play the album folder in NAS.

David O'Higgins posted:

Echolane posted:

Let’s talk about metadata for classical music lovers.  I happened to spot a Roon thread where posters were sneering at us old fogies for complaining about the problems we have with classical music, so there is feeling of being stigmatized every time it is mentioned.  And it doesn’t help that Roon doesn’t seem to improve it’s support of classical.

Is it really THAT difficult to improve support for classical music?  Or asked differently, what is so difficult about it?  I know Composer presents difficulties, but it seems fairly easy to set up a list of all known composers to use as a standard.  They certainly have plenty of data to begin a list like that.

And what does Roon have to do to support boxed sets?  What is so difficult that the problem persists?  Surely classical music isn’t the only genre that has boxed sets.

I don’t know what precisely your gripe is, but I find Roon light years ahead of the Naim app on Classical. It recognises symphonies as symphonies and operas as operas, not just a list of tracks. Play a piano trio, for example, and if you have ‘Radio’ switched on, it will play further examples in full. 

More generally, while you are playing a track, it gives you thumbnail access to any other album in your collection by the same artist. You can pick up any of those thumbnails and explore your collection further, all without interrupting the music playing. 

Can anyone suggest another app capable of this type of opening a music collection?

 

I’ll be able to gripe more constructively in about a week ????

I did cancel my first free trial of Roon some months ago now, because I wasn’t happy with how it presented my collection. I remember being particularly unhappy about the many two and three CD albums of my many operas.   Optimistically, and I hope not foolishly, I’m giving Roon another try in a few days, as soon as some more Ethernet cables arrive and I can test out some new gear that’ll make Roon more suitable to my listening habits.  Meanwhile I have edited my metadata obsessively so everything is very standardized.  I am hoping I will have better results by telling Roon to use my metadata instead of its.  I’m a little worried it might backfire on me, because Roon has more data fields than Naim and I don’t know how Roon will respond to that order, but if I am not happy I can always reverse that decision.

With Naim, I’ve been using Album as my primary means of choosing music to play.  One reason is that all my music is albums.  Using Album works well for everything with a Composer because Album display is  alphabetized and all the titles of my operas and symphonies begin with Composer’s last name.  I’ve never chosen what to play by whether it’s a symphony or an opera and I can’t yet imagine that I’d want to.  More experience with Roon will make that option clearer to me.  Where I do have a gripe with Naim is when I want to play something that lacks a composer.  Usually that means an artist is prominent.  Naim’s search  by artist doesn’t usually return all albums with the requested artist.  That is very frustrating.  I hope Roon will do a better job.  

I wanted to add that Artist is another field I have obsessively edited.  When an album has multiple artists, all are entered in Naim’s Artist field and separated by a semi-colon which Roon identifies as a delimiter and Naim seems to understand because it will often return a secondary artist on a search.  Since Naim has the ability to tag multiple artists, I am hoping when I choose to search on artist, Roon will retrieve all appropriate albums and not mysteriously leave any out.

I wish Naim had a field for Conductor and another for Composer.  That’d help Naim’s retrieval capability a lot.  

OuYang posted:

When iTunes release at 2001, argument between file folder based and metadata DB based organization never stops. They all have Pros and Cons.

With Roon I still keep music file folders structure in NAS unchanged, then let Roon build its own metadata DB. I also can use other program to play the album folder in NAS.

No idea about iTunes as I dislike and never use it. But I don’t understand why there should be arguments - the software should simply be enabled to work both ways, then the user - the customer- can do whatever best suits his if her individual circumstances.

When I trialled Roon it didn’t find all the music that I know was sitting there in the drive alongside other music it found, I assumed because if couldn’t cope with whatever was wrong or missing with the metadata. I tried the ‘tag by file name’ option that it had, but that didn’t achieve it. As it didn’t find all my music, and I had significant irritations with the social-media-like interface and Tidal in my face, I dropped it within a day or two.

Roon is nice, I quite like it, but In think a life time license of $49.99 seems more reasonable to me.

I understand that some people would say don't be cheap, but it is the way that I see it,

re all this chat about metadata, file folders, what tags to use, etc etc

Welcome to the scary world of computer science in general and databases in particular

I don't want to give a tutorial on this stuff, let us just say that it is a complex, very complex problem area.

Here is a little walk through the increasing complexities by means of some specific examples:

* Highway 61 revisited by Bob Dylan … is it "Bob Dylan", or "Dylan, Bob", or surname="Dylan" prefix="Bob"; and what about his real name?

* Revolver by The Beatles … is it "The Beatles", "Beatles", or "Beatles, The"; do we have all individual artist names, …?

* Bach Goldberg Variations by Murray Paraia … composer is now important; only one work for entire album but with 34 tracks! 

* Beethoven and Mahler 5th symphonies … by the orchestra or by the conductor; perhaps different orchestras and conductors; 2 works but each made up of multiple tracks; probably over more than one physical media….

* "Breakfast Baroque" by various … who is the main artist tag; each track by a different artist; tracks only one movement of a work; etc etc

* piping (Scottish bagpipes) or many trad folk pieces … one track made up of many tunes/songs each by different composers … but on one track.

... and I could go on and on …

I worked on this over 10 years ago and it is complicated; I think I was up to over 25 tables for different entities within a database schema to allow for all the relationships. A major issue is that databases like 1-to-many relationships but this real world problem is full of many-to-many relationships that are harder to keep consistent.

The point is, whether it is classical, pop, rock, folk or whatever, there are the same issues to solve with works, artists, composers, etc - it just seems that the classical genre is a bit more fussy about these things since they are actually interested in who wrote a particular work, for example … but then think also about blues or jazz afficiandoes who can get quite involved with performance and recording details too!

Then there is the issue of where the data comes from; this is the argument about metadata, folder structures with file names, databases, etc … oh for a definitive central registry of all that stuff … but we have to live with what we have.

To me, the fundamental problem is that this has gone the wrong way from its historical beginnings with paper cataloguing of recordings.

We still seem to start from the recording medium, be it CD, vinyl, cassette or streaming that still has albums and tracks) and then work outwards towards the who and what information.

My approach is to start with people, groups (bands, ensembles, orchestras, etc), and works.

People can be artists, composers, conductors, producers, etc - and probably more than one of these … where does Leonard Bernstein fit in for example .. oh and BTW a work might be jointly attributed (e.g. Lennon and McCartney).

A combination of all this information contributes to 1 or more  performances (outtakes and alternative takes).

A performance may have 1 or more recordings (different edits, mixing, mastering, etc).

A recording can then be mapped onto one or more tracks of one or more physical or digital media.

So at the end of the day, we have the details of where a recording of a performance of some composer(s) work by some artist(s) can be found !!!

... and so it goes on and on …

I hasten to add that I do not do the above, it is primarily a theoretical exercise.

Life is too short and  I need time to listen to the music

In fact my own metadata is a bit of a mess since I had my UnitiServe repaired and serviced, all the music was restored but my NServe user metadata edits seem to have gone astray; I have also not got around to fully editing my downloads folder on the NAS!

From my understanding (and remember from my previous post I cannot access roon), roon is at least an attempt to provide a user-friendly front-end to some of that stuff above.

Just remember that it is not a classical genre problem, it has not been solved, and therefore everyone seems to have their own approaches … we just have to live with it (unless we write our own database).

... well that is my morning rant over …

Off to trawl through my music and have a listen to something, what, I don't know,

Allan

.

I can’t help thinking that a lot of these tagging problems would become irrelevant if it was possible to do a global search of your local library in the Naim app, in much the same way as you can for Tidal. 

Is that not possible? I thought it was, though it is a while since I had the ND5XS. Certainly I could browse through my collection, even files with no metadata at all, just the file/folder names.

No, you can only search the contents of the list you have open. Quite useful if you forget your alphabet!

I purchased a years subscription this year and I am in general very pleased with it. The reason I purchased it was the impressive nature of room to room integration via squeezebox, airplay, connected pcs etc.

It's not without faults though, the interface its pretty poor particularly on pc/mac desktops, side ways only scrolling is just appalling.

Not being able to navigate by folder structure is is poor

Internet radio is clunky

Its own play on feature after your album is finished is drearily predictable.

Cannot VPN in and use the core, making roon useless outside of your home.

However I find the upsides outweigh this but its expensive, fwiw I did not detect any audio quality differences to jRiver but I did not expect it too.

The room to room feature is the main reason I’m giving Roon a try again.  I have four stereo systems in my five room house. I can’t afford to buy one of the new Naim streamers to stream in the other areas, although I suppose I could learn to use UPnP as two of the systems are good stereo systems attached to desktop computers.

Regardless, I am keeping the Naim Uniti Core as an option for my main living room system. The Uniti Core and a Sonic Transporter will be side by side in the living room system.  I can’t wait to compare SQ.  I bought a linear power supply for the Sonic Transporter so I thought that would help SQ.  I have a pretty nice system in my living room and I’m always striving for good audio.  

Quang Tonthat posted:

Roon is nice, I quite like it, but In think a life time license of $49.99 seems more reasonable to me.

I understand that some people would say don't be cheap, but it is the way that I see it,

It might seem reasonable to you, but all that metadata in Roon costs money.  And honestly, is there any program that only costs $50 for a lifetime license?  $50 for the lifetime of that particular version, perhaps. 

I don’t disagree that $500 is a lot, but it really is great value. 

What meta data in roon? They don't write it, they get it from online sources like everyone else, including plex which does it for a lifetime pass of 70 quid.

Allan,

I don’t want to ignore your thoughtful and necessarily lengthy exposé   (I am sure it could have been longer!) of the organizational and programming difficulties that music poses.  There are difficulties wherever one looks deeply.  Nevertheless, I keep thinking that giving a lot of latitude to the user to organize their music in a way that suits them  would solve a lot of problems.

Would that really be so difficult to program?

I would be very happy with any system I could edit to uniformity.  I’ve done that within the limited possibilities of Naim.  For example, I have all Title fields organized to this standard:

   Puccini: Madame Butterfly [Vol 1]  

That represents Composer Last Name and Album Title.  And for boxed sets (I have many) I add Vol 1, Vol 2, Vol 3, as necessary.   If I have more than one boxed set of the same composer and title, I switch  to CD 1, 2, 3, for the second box set.  If there’s a third, I’ll come up with something else that’s unique.  Maybe I’ll use a parenthesis instead of brackets.    I am pleased to say that all my albums, including all boxed sets, are perfectly presented in alphabetical order in Naim.

I do wish  Naim would add a field for Composer, but I don’t find it that necessary so long as I  edit any Title that deviates from my convention.

I have all Artist fields organized to a standard convention also:

     Luciano Pavarotti; Kathleen Battle; Robert Merrill; Herbert von Karajan

Roon recognizes a semi-colon as a delimiter and Naim seems to also.  I add the conductor last, if there is one.  I use the artist’s full names and strive for uniformity throughout..  That is I standardize as  Plácido Domingo, not Placido Domingo, and so on.  (Though it’s hard to  reproduce that accent for a search, so I use Domingo on a search.)

I do wish for another field from Naim, which is Conductor.  I think that would be very useful.  However, I do put conductor in the artist field as you see above.  It doesn’t seem to matter how many artists names I enter,  Naim will return an album even if I search on secondary names.  Although I have not yet checked for accuracy.

That leaves Genre, which I use only very occasionally, usually only if memory fails me as to an artist name, or some album outside my usual interest area that I lack familiarity with. I haven’t paid much attention to search reliability on Genre as I rarely use it.

I could make do quite nicely with Naim with only one additional field, Conductor.  And here’s where I come to my biggest gripe on Naim.    I just need Naim to reliably return all entries on a search request!  I can’t for the life of me figure out why it doesn’t. 

 I probably should add that all of my music is in the form of albums or equivalent. I do not have individual tracks.  I’ve never listened to music that way.  I’m sure that presents other difficulties but I am not familiar with what they might be.

Of course I recognize that I am probably more obsessive about editing than many, but at least if users have the option to edit their way out of the software’s limitations, then they would  have only their own laziness to blame for a disordered presentation.

i know Roon has many more tags (which I think is synonomous with my use of the term fields, someone correct me If I am  wrong), but from my present level of inexperience, I don’t think I’d need more fields than I’ve specified above to be quite happy.  And I don’t see too much difficulty with organizing by composer surname (yes, there could be multiple composers with the same surname, Strauss comes to mind, but I think it’s an uncommon problem).

Who is responsible for those databases that are used for retrieving metadata?  Why isn’t someone beating down their doors for a more standardized presentation? Same with CD makers.  Why isn’t there a standard for metadata there?  Is there no higher level body capable of organizing this?   Is it that we are too early in the relatively new world of streaming?  Or is it that no one is really responsible for organizing this sort of thing and we can’t ever expect improvement?

garyi posted:

What meta data in roon? They don't write it, they get it from online sources like everyone else, including plex which does it for a lifetime pass of 70 quid.

And they don't get it online if your music has no metadata and is not recognised - the very things that need metadata adding...

Echolane posted:

Who is responsible for those databases that are used for retrieving metadata?  Why isn’t someone beating down their doors for a more standardized presentation? Same with CD makers.  Why isn’t there a standard for metadata there?  Is there no higher level body capable of organizing this?   Is it that we are too early in the relatively new world of streaming?  Or is it that no one is really responsible for organizing this sort of thing and we can’t ever expect improvement?

 

You have nicely summed up the metadata problems that cause issues with library software relying on metadata, especially where that is a rigid requirement - and is precisely why I argue for the additional option of searching and browsing by file structure, where the information is simply there through the inevitable process of saving each album. As for your final questions, I suppose much of the trouble comes because with CDs the metadata was purely for info, and never intended to be copied with ripped files and relied on for streaming. Digital downloads or hifi quality music are a pretty new thing - but the question indeed is why isntf there now a standardised convention?

Must admit that I find myself slowly browsing the streaming forum more than Hi-Fi corner at present having attended a new streamer demo in Manchester and bearing in mind my cdx2 will be 17 years old soon. I have some empathy with Allan Milne here as I’m registered sight impaired so accessibility matters for every single thing I do. I can see why some people obsess in meta data but I really couldn’t care less. I don’t really get the “easier to browse and discover” thing at all. I’ve 1500 albums within about 10 foot of my listening position and finding something I’ve not heard in a while is as easy as plunging my hand in and grabbing. Having used other people’s streaming systems I’ve seen nothing to change my mind on that front. The debate is, at best, overplayed in terms of importance. Largely of relevance to those of an obsessive nature or those for whom a simple A to Z chronology is something to agonise over rather than enjoy. 

My sole concern is sound quality. Thought the first generation didn’t even play music until you hit NDS level but the new lot sound way better and my interest has been especially piqued by the NDX2. 

Anyways, popped over to the Roon site to see what all the fuss is about and... laughed. From a VI perspective it’s not just awful it’s almost scornful. Every known web guideline on accessibility breached from the off. “Hey guys, let’s make text hard to read by putting it over an image. Let’s make it worse by making each screen as cluttered as possible”. Funniest of the lot is the bit where they say something along the lines of “this not this” and compare the inside of a gatefold album sleeve to a bare list and then their interface. From a VI perspective give me either the gatefold as I remember it or the list. Do not give me that semi-organised mess. 

Don’t get me wrong, There are some fundamental accessibility issues with Spoitify, Tidal and Naim but Roon. Oh dear. 

It should be borne in mind that if this is your hi-fi future visual impairment is expected to double in the UK between now and 2050 and much of that will be people over 60. I’ll be holding off for a good while longer. I don’t even need Voiceover. I just need accessible text and images. Roon provides neither at present. 

Mike interesting... Roon doesn’t work for me.. I some how thought it was aimed at those new to streaming and cataloguing... but your post implies it’s not doing that well either... 

So I wonder what market Roon is aiming at???

........  I had been wondering when someone would say Roon doesn't do it for them.     I played with a system a while back & yes I could see where he was coming from with all the families music stored in various places all linked in.   I could not see much advantage using it when my music is only stored in the one NAS.      I did like the app display & ease of use tho'.   

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

So I wonder what market Roon is aiming at???

Those into social media like Facebook, was my impression. (And if that group, particularly those who want mainly Tidal, or seemless  integration of Tidal with their own collection.

Mike-B posted:

........  I had been wondering when someone would say Roon doesn't do it for them.     

That wasn’t the first...

I sympathise with Mike and have looked for the thread on Roon community to raise the profile of this important issue.

To me, Roon is aimed at: those who love streaming music; are not adept at tagging and classifying their own collections; subscribe to Tidal; enjoy discovering new artists; enjoy exploring favourites' back catalogues; enjoy the "magazine" style; require a brilliant solution to controlling sources in different rooms etc.

It obviously is not a necessity for the enjoyment of music but for me it is a great pleasure to use it. It's by no means perfect but it continues to undergo development and is very much consumer focused. I do hope that the accessibility issue is addressed as I believe it could help people with disability to get more out of one of life's great pleasures...I have mobility problems and Roon is part of the solution for me.

Very best wishes to all.

As evidence that no 2 people see the same thing the same way . . . 

I'm rather adept at editing metadata and managed to run Asset and MinimServer and play music with the Naim App for many years.  But once we added Roon it "stuck."

The features that get the most use by us and that distinguish it from the Naim App and Asset or Minim (at least as I was able to configure them) are:

1. Runs on more than one device simultaneously.  The Naim App chokes if it's running on one iPhone and you try to use it from another. A not-all-that-rare occurrence here.

2. Runs on my Macbook.  I often like to listen to music while using my laptop, and the fully native app for Roon on my Mac is a pleasure to use. This is a pretty big one.

3. The search capabilities are lightning fast and robust.  Way better/faster, undoubtedly due to Roon keeping its own database locally.

4. The data supplied by Roon is quite handy.  We frequently say to ourselves, "What year was that released?"  Roon supplies that answer right in the UI window, along with other relatively useful (most of the time) notes about the album or performers, including the credits. ("Who produced this album we're listening to?" Oh look it's right there in the credits.)  

5. Multi-disc sets are handled much better than I've been able to do with Asset or Minim and the Naim App.  Roon automatically divides them into disc 1, disc 2, etc. and nests them in the UI so that I don't have to see 5 copies of the same album cover in the UI.

Biggest disadvantage:  Cannot control volume from within Roon on either of my systems (ND555/252 or Allo DigiOne to Qute2).  So now I'm using Naim remotes again, rather than from within the Naim app.

Bart posted:

Biggest disadvantage:  Cannot control volume from within Roon on either of my systems (ND555/252 or Allo DigiOne to Qute2).  So now I'm using Naim remotes again, rather than from within the Naim app.

Hi Bart, can you not set Device Volume for either of your Roon endpoints, as shown below ?

I can certainly control volume on my Atom from within Roon.