NDX and Chord Hugo

Posted by: Foxman50 on 18 April 2014

I have been contemplating adding a DAC to my NDX/XPS2 to see (or should that be hear) what it can bring to the party. And so thought it about time i made inroads into Having a few home demos. After looking around at products that are within my budget i came across the Chord Hugo DAC.

 

Although it is meant to be a portable headphone unit, it can be used as a full line level fixed DAC.

 

The dealer lent me a TQ black digital coax lead, which have twist grip plugs. This was required as the present batch of Hugo's have a case design fault that wont allow any decent cable to fit, soon to be rectified. Thankfully the TQ just manages to hang on to the coax port.

 

Once all connected and gone through the minimal setup procedure of the Hugo, what does the red LED mean again, i left it to warm up for half an hour.

 

Poured a beer and sat down for an evenings listening.

 

What was that, where did that come from, that's what that instrument is. OMG, as my little'n would say, Where is it getting all this detail from.

 

After spending last night and today with it, all i can say is that it has totally transformed my system from top to bottom. I never considered my NDX to be veiled or shut in, not even sure that's the correct terms. All i can say is its opened up the sound stage and space around instruments. Everything I've put through it has had my toes, feet and legs tapping away to the music.

 

Even putting the toe tapping, the resolution the clarity to one side, what its greatest achievement for me has been in making albums that I've had trouble listening too enjoyable now.

 

One added bonus is that it has made the XPS redundant. I cannot hear any difference with it in or out of the system.

 

While i thought a DAC may make a change in the degree of the jump from ND5 to NDX, i was not prepared for this. Anyone looking at adding a PSU to there NDX may want to check this unit out first.

 

For me this has to be the bargain of the year.

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Aleg
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
To compete with CHord (if Naim think this is even needed), Naim would have go down the FPGA route.

They have known about this for many years, and yet still go with Burr Brown DACs.

so not so sure we will see new products.



It is easy enough, Rob Watts is an independent consultant, so Naim probably could just hire him.

Originally Posted by analogmusic:

having a CPU inside the DAC (which the DAC V1 has) brings new challenges in terms of Noise, and electrical supply isolation.

As is it some people here say the NDS is not upto the CD555 level. Probably because of the Noisy network card inside.

so more complicated than it seems. and that's why I am skeptical how another company has overcome all this, without compromises. Compromises that Naim simply does not make.



That just shows your lack of knowledge about the subject, I you make an effort you can read a lot about the 'how it's been done' on the Head-fi.org thread in the comments from Rob Watts.
You will be able to understand how it can be done without making compromises and why the regular (Naim and other brands) route of DAC chips will not bring the same results as the FPGA can.

Just make an effort to understand instead of balking about it.

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Analogmusic - your questions earlier on batteries are valid, and the answers are probably unknown - I guess in three our four years time we might have more info on this. I have as a curiosity run the Hugo from batteries alone and let it discharge (the charge status LED changes colour as it discharges until it flashes then shuts down) and I hear no noticeable change in performance - until it shutsdown of course. There is apparently extensive regulation for the internal powerlines and this might be the reason why. I am also impressed by whether the PSU is plugged in or not has not the slightest difference in performance in line out mode.

 

BTW I look forward to your comparative comments on the Hugo with regard to bass articulation. If you can be bothered to trawl back - near the start of this thread when I was reviewing the Hugo - bass articulation was one of the principle strengths that stood out for me. And I still appreciate it.

 

Aleg - good point about Naim hiring Rob Watts. 

 

Simon

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

BTW it is worth pointing out the FPGA handles the DSP and not the actual DAC function. The DACs in the Hugo appears to be twin proprietary discrete delta sigma style DACs

 

Simon

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by whsturm
 
Apologies if I have given the impression that the Hugo is just about more detail because it isn't. I ran the Hugo alongside the nDAC/XPS into Naim amplification and Kudos speakers in a way which meant that I could switch between the two during songs. The Hugo didn't just add more detail it preserved the PRAT which is what attracted me to Naim in the first place.
 
I didn't want the Hugo to sound better as I have enjoyed the nDAC/XPS combination for a number of years and never been disappointed. Additionally the nDAC/XPS cost me considerably more than the Hugo I had on demonstration. Unfortunately to both my wife (in a 'blind test') and myself the Hugo sounded better across all the genres of music which we tried. In the end I am 'into Hi-fi' for the sound and how closely it matches the experience I encounter when I go to live events. The Hugo has brought be closer to the live experience.
 
My advice is to listen to one on demonstration as I did. You don't have to buy one if you don't like it but I've not yet seen a post from anyone on this forum who has tried the Hugo and decided to stick with their Naim DAC. This doesn't mean that the Naim DAC range isn't still very good just that perhaps technology marches forward and 'Burr Brown' DAC designs (used in Naim and other products) are no longer class leading
 
In any case the fun in hi-fi is in trying new things....
 
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
I think that's missing the whole point of Naim
 
For these kind of details, Linn sources may be more resolving too than Naim
 
But I like Naim sources because they bring music to life.
 
I had a Linn Sneaky, but I could not get on with it musically and sold it in a month.
 
I purchased a DAC V1 and instantly it just added musicality in spades and brought even movies to life, and I must say, even rivals and exceeds with considerable ease movies in my Cinema (source first !)
 
Isn't bringing songs and movies to life  the whole point of Naim in the first place?
 
 
Originally Posted by whsturm:

Having had a Chord Hugo on demonstration for a few days I have just replaced my nDAC/XPS with the Hugo.

 

I have terrifically enjoyed the nDAC presentation over the past few years but new technology does seem to have taken things forward a stride. Whilst I never considered the nDAC's sound to be 'murky' the Hugo brings out details which previously lurked at the back. For example the 'ting' of a cymbal becomes a fully fledged sound with natural decay. The double bass also seems to go lower and is more formed and voices gain a more realistic midrange (for example in the introduction to Forcione on the 'Live' album the presenter's voice is more 'real'). It like a 'veil' has been lifted to allow you to hear more of the detail.

 

In my classical collection (Vivaldi's 'Four Seasons' for example) you can more clearly discern the instruments and hear the 'fret work' on the violins.

 

Sorry all...another convert to the Chord DAC at least until Naim (or Burr Brown) respond with their next iteration. It is worth noting that Chord, I believe, are adding the DAC parts of the Hugo into their digital amplifier (the 2800) which at more than £6k is a clear vindication of its ability.

 

The Hugo doesn't look as good on my rack though and the nDAC/XPS have left a large 'hole'....

 

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by whsturm
 
Just to note that I contacted Chord before buying the Hugo being concerned about (a) leaving it plugged in all the time charging (as a stand-alone DAC) and (b) the need to change the batteries.
 
Chord told me that (a) leaving it plugged in all the time is fine because there is a sensor which directs power to the circuits when the batteries are full (i.e. you can't overcharge), Additionally the unit draws power when used (I understand) directly from the mains when plugged in rather than the batteries.
 
In terms of (b) Chord suggested that the batteries will last around three years before requiring change and that is long enough for me.  
 
 
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Analogmusic - your questions earlier on batteries are valid, and the answers are probably unknown - I guess in three our four years time we might have more info on this. I have as a curiosity run the Hugo from batteries alone and let it discharge (the charge status LED changes colour as it discharges until it flashes then shuts down) and I hear no noticeable change in performance - until it shutsdown of course. There is apparently extensive regulation for the internal powerlines and this might be the reason why. I am also impressed by whether the PSU is plugged in or not has not the slightest difference in performance in line out mode.

 

BTW I look forward to your comparative comments on the Hugo with regard to bass articulation. If you can be bothered to trawl back - near the start of this thread when I was reviewing the Hugo - bass articulation was one of the principle strengths that stood out for me. And I still appreciate it.

 

Aleg - good point about Naim hiring Rob Watts. 

 

Simon

 

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by analogmusic
In that case I could easily see this coming to a new line of Naim digital sources.
 
 
But I thought the point of the Chord digital source lines was that it did not use Delta Sigma DAC and used the FPGA as the DAC?
 
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

BTW it is worth pointing out the FPGA handles the DSP and not the actual DAC function. The DACs in the Hugo appears to be twin proprietary discrete delta sigma style DACs

 

Simon

 

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by analogmusic
Aleg
 
Some customers take more time to make decisions.
 
I've just been mentioning my concerns. Most probably I will have to buy without audition.
 
I had been saving up for an NDS, so if Hugo even gets me to NDAC/XPS2 level then why not?
 
I need another DAC for the Home theatre system and I can't take my DAC V1 to my office, it's too big for my desk to be be not noticed by anyone.
 
By the way completely off topic anyone try the oppo 105 D?
 
 
Originally Posted by Aleg:
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
To compete with CHord (if Naim think this is even needed), Naim would have go down the FPGA route.

They have known about this for many years, and yet still go with Burr Brown DACs.

so not so sure we will see new products.



It is easy enough, Rob Watts is an independent consultant, so Naim probably could just hire him.

Originally Posted by analogmusic:

having a CPU inside the DAC (which the DAC V1 has) brings new challenges in terms of Noise, and electrical supply isolation.

As is it some people here say the NDS is not upto the CD555 level. Probably because of the Noisy network card inside.

so more complicated than it seems. and that's why I am skeptical how another company has overcome all this, without compromises. Compromises that Naim simply does not make.



That just shows your lack of knowledge about the subject, I you make an effort you can read a lot about the 'how it's been done' on the Head-fi.org thread in the comments from Rob Watts.
You will be able to understand how it can be done without making compromises and why the regular (Naim and other brands) route of DAC chips will not bring the same results as the FPGA can.

Just make an effort to understand instead of balking about it.

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Analogmusic - your questions earlier on batteries are valid, and the answers are probably unknown - I guess in three our four years time we might have more info on this. I have as a curiosity run the Hugo from batteries alone and let it discharge (the charge status LED changes colour as it discharges until it flashes then shuts down) and I hear no noticeable change in performance - until it shutsdown of course. There is apparently extensive regulation for the internal powerlines and this might be the reason why. I am also impressed by whether the PSU is plugged in or not has not the slightest difference in performance in line out mode.

 

BTW I look forward to your comparative comments on the Hugo with regard to bass articulation. If you can be bothered to trawl back - near the start of this thread when I was reviewing the Hugo - bass articulation was one of the principle strengths that stood out for me. And I still appreciate it.

 

Aleg - good point about Naim hiring Rob Watts. 

 

Simon 

Yup if it uses a regulator then these devices need the supply to be a certain margin higher than their output.  When it goes below that most modern devices will simply switch off.  So you should get 100% performance quality and then ...... 0%

 

Non-regulated devices, like the vast majority of power amps and just about all valve kit, don't use regulators and so you wouldn't see this behaviour there.  Mind you who runs hifi power amps and valve kit on batteries?

 

My TT (in my avatar) runs on a Lead/Acid battery and then a regulator - one of these boutique ones that you can get hold of.

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by analogmusic

Char Wallah

 

I am with you. 

 

Please remember my standard : has to completely and massively trounce the DAC V1.

 

I am not interested in a small 5 or 10 % improvement

 

Is the Hugo the Heavyweight champion of the sub 1500 GBP digital world?

 

We will see. I have an open mind 

 

I'll be back.

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Analogmusic, obviously I cant post links here, but there is a description, a white paper presentation, and a block diagram that shows the FPGA DSP (and digital format unpacking) and these then go through to two discrete delta sigma DACs. There is even a diagram to show on the miniature PCB where the DACs are and the FPGA chip is.

Simon

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Aleg
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Analogmusic, obviously I cant post links here, but there is a description, a white paper presentation, and a block diagram that shows the FPGA DSP (and digital format unpacking) and these then go through two the discrete delta sigma DACs. There is even a diagram to show on the miniature PCB where the DACs are and the FPGA chip is.

Simon

 

On a certain rumanian hifi review site there are a dozen large size extremely detailed photographs of both sides of the board, if that's the level of detail you are interested in ;-) .

 

again can't post links, but there aren't many sound news sites with a romanian country extension.

 

cheers

 

aleg

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by cvrle

I said once, I'm out here, but it is hard to read this thread and not to come back.

What amazes me here is, how much some people (A) can argue about something they have never touched or experienced, with people (B) who already spent weeks or months with it. People "B" most likely already owed current equipment of people "A", just a note.

I am pretty sure that Naim will come up with something as good as Hugo or even better. That is not a question to me, they must. Not just Naim, than the other manufacturers too. We see it on daily bases with different products, cars, phones....and so on. They follow each other.

The point here is that Chord broke the ice, as someone said yesterday here. They were able to produce an exceptional source for reasonable price tag, bringing incredible music reproduction to the masses (not just details, mentioned here…the music, sorry).

There was a question about SQ and functionality. If I was only about functionality I would never buy Naim in first place, for so much money. I would spend fraction of it for some Yamaha or similar (all functionality in this world), the rest I would spent for some nice Caribbean cruise. We all here are because of SQ first, I guess, functionality is a secondary thing, and something that I would always make compromise at.

Aleg and I (could be someone else here, but not aware of) are using minimalist player, which works the way that you have to copy track(s) you want to play and paste it to that player before playback starts. There is no skip forward, there is no pause there is skip back. So what, don't you have to stand up to change the record on LP12 too. I would never change this minimalist player for comfort of some well-known players. Why not...the SQ of that player beats any other on the market, bringing the life to the music. 

The other question here was about streaming music from Spotfy, Qbous, Radio Paradise, or similar. Big deal, plug a computer to USB , and there you go. You can stream anything in this world. You will not find more flexibility than using a computer, either Mac or PC.

Very last question that I would like to point to is, batteries. They go, I open hugo, and I plug brand new pair of batteries in. Is it that simple, I think so. BTW, until then we may have flooding of dac’s same or better than Hugo, so who knows where that’s gonna take us…?

I just want to thank to moderators of this forum keeping this thread alive! 

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Char Wallah:

Well I hope you get a Hugo soon, analogue, and agree with these guys....maybe then we can move on and have a quiet life. 

Hopefully not a quiet life because that will mean his Hugo ain't working. Boom Boom

 

That probably should go on the jokes thread, it was that good.

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Wat - yep they are proprietary ("Pulse Array" is I believe a Chord or Rob Watts term) delta sigma devices discretely designed and built - ie they are not off the shelf. They are  fed via the DSP including noise shaping etc via the FPGA processor. The Chord architectural block diagram shows quite clearly.

I think they sound rather good, especially with a Naim amp  

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by tonym
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Char Wallah:

Well I hope you get a Hugo soon, analogue, and agree with these guys....maybe then we can move on and have a quiet life. 

Hopefully not a quiet life because that will mean his Hugo ain't working. Boom Boom

 

That probably should go on the jokes thread, it was that good.

Don't give up the day job Bill! 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

 

 

 

 

Show us your Hugo!

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by KRM

So can the Hugo's USB inputs handle Spotify or Qobuz from an iPad or do the owners here not use these services?

 

Keith

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Foxman50

 

 

 

Originally Posted by dave4jazz:

Slightly off topic, but this thread does seem to have veered violently at times on it's long journey, however a couple of points stick in my head:

  1. Would anyone advise someone to spend £2-3K on a streamer product to then not use the DAC section but shell out another £1,400 for that privilege?

Definitely if it sounds as good as a system costing £12K

 

    2.  Does SQ always trump functionality?

 

Nope, which is why i wouldn't use it as a pre amp

 

 

Dave

 

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by KRM:

So can the Hugo's USB inputs handle Spotify or Qobuz from an iPad or do the owners here not use these services?

 

Keith

Keith

 

Yes it can as you can use the blue tooth connection. Or I'm sure some sort of adaptor could be used. Or use a laptop to feed it.

 

Quite a few solutions

 

Graeme

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by analogmusic:
Hi Simon
 
I want a DAC that can polish a turd  
 
and that can color and sweeten that turd a bit 
 
I don't like musical turds 
 
Honesty isn't always the best policy
 
I'm the person who uses DSP on all the music I play anyway. I never to listen a recording "bare". It must be processed for me. and I too when I can, listen and enjoy music till the early hours, when possible on the weekends and everyone is asleep. 
 
Another alternative point of view. Hugo is not the end all for everyone
 
Cheers
Analog
  

Analog

 

i find your posts very strange. You say how your V1 is so perfect for you and how Naim know how you like your music. Then you say you push all your music through some form of DSP processor so you don't  listen to it bare.

 

Is it just me or are you always contradicting yourself.

 

Oh and don't stop posting until you've heard Hugo, i need my evening laugh reading your posts.

 

Graeme

 

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by KRM

Hi Graeme,

 

Blue Tooth is compromised for iPad, as Simon discovered earlier in the thread. I'm interested in the physical connection which works with the NDS, but is awkward.

 

Keith

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Foxman50

 

Originally Posted by analogmusic:

And also, Naim sources never, but never get the bass guitar wrong

 

If the bass is wrong, the whole musical message is messed up beyond repair.

 

as a musician myself, it's an unforgivable mistake to make.

 

No point getting other details right if you can't hear what the bass guitar player is doing. The speed, timing, energy, the way he is playing.

 

OK so its about the bass, OK got that

 

When I have the DAC V1 playing movies, it makes my REL quake sound like another subwoofer altogether, and the quality of bass exceeds what I hear in the cinema. Of course not quantity, but quality is so much more enjoyable.

 

And in this department Naim is the best 

 

and that's what has always amazed me to Naim, how they get and understand what music is all about, and how they are able to manufacture kit that musicians fall in love with from the first few seconds of replay.

 

As the founder of Naim said, music is about people

 

If you can't hear what the people on the record are doing, there isn't much point.

 

Oh OK its about the people, OK got that

 

One of the most memorable demonstrations I ever had, ever, was of a NDAC/XPS2 into 282/HC/250 and what was so interesting was not the additional level of detail over what I had at the time (Nait XS), which was barely audible to me, but the sheer articulation of the bass guitar player, and the kick drum.

 

It was most incredible to hear. and bass articulation must be heard to be understood what level of enjoyment of brings to the table.

 

Oh now hang on a damn minute, is it the bass or the people. Oh its about the bass and the people. Few thats OK then cause thats where Hugo excels 

 

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by Foxman50
Originally Posted by KRM:

Hi Graeme,

 

Blue Tooth is compromised for iPad, as Simon discovered earlier in the thread. I'm interested in the physical connection which works with the NDS, but is awkward.

 

Keith

Yes i would definitely agree with that, but i have to say it sounds better than i thought it would. I'm not sure if an adaptor exists for an ipad, but be worth looking into. Is the SQ from ipad any good anyway. Never really played with it. USB from my netbook works very well, and this will play any online service.

 

Graeme

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by HiFiman

Just picked up my Hugo today going to try it later cannot wait, few things to do first bath the kids etc

 

Hopefully the UQ can act as a good source into the Hugo, I once used the UQ into my nDac/XPS2 with great results for a couple of years before I down scaled.

 

 

Posted on: 04 July 2014 by KRM

Qobuz uses FLAC at CD quality so it's too good for Blue Tooth from iPad. I wouldn't expect to need an adaptor, just the bundled 30 pin to USB connector.

 

Keith