Rugby World Cup

As I have said before, if every team in the tournament played to their full ability then England would come home with the trophy.
...John Channing


Don't know about that, John. Your belief seems to be that England are definitely the best team in the world but alas are not quite on the boil at the moment which is lucky for the rest of us.

See, that sounds kinda arrogant to me. A little blinkered too

Whatever, good luck to your guys on the weekend.


red

Wow - interesting stuff here. John, Patrick and Co not as confident as they were earlier in the year, that's for sure.

I particularly liked the bit about being fascinated by JPR's sideburns (you're a dagg Matthew - in a treasonous kind of way, your countrymen might say). But good on you for being so forthright. I have to say however, that I would probably support the ABs even if they weren't a great side to watch. Let's face it - until the mid 80's AB rugger was very much in the England style now - ie: forward dominance and good goal-kicker, reasonable backs but not expansively used. I agree with John's comments on this - we are a bit like some Aussie sides of the 80s - but better than that of course.

I do take issue with Patrick's comment:

"The ABs, Australia and South Africa have all won the world cup but played 'professional' rather than 'entertaining' rugby to do it."

This may be true of Aussie and SA, but when NZ won the 1987 World Cup we were easily the most expansive and entertaining side in the World. We took rugger to a new level back then - take a look at the tries we scored during that tournament. Just because our forward pack was dominant in 1987 didn't mean our backs weren't used to the full.

And in 1995, although we didn't win the thing - we played some of the most free-flowing rugger ever seen - and came within an extra time drop goal of winning the thing. Again our forward pack was great - but our backs were awesome (Lomu, Bunce, Little and co). This current AB side plays a similar game to our 1995 side (but without the obviously dominant forward pack) - so it will be interesting to see how that works in terms of winning this tournament. I guess the danger is that we have an "off-day" like we did against SA in the 1995 Final and France in the 1999 Semi (or strike a side playing out of their skins the way France did on that occasion).

But right now it is very hard to discount any of the final 4 as potential winners. However, on current form I think Aussie are the least likely to win the thing. The winner should come from NZ, England and France.

Naturally, as a Kiwi, I want (indeed expect) NZ to win the tournament. I know John will disagree with me, however I genuinely believe that if all teams play to full potential NZ will still win the Cup - because man for man we have the greatest talent in our side. But then again I have expected NZ to win every World Cup to date and we have done it only once!

Our backline is our obvious strength - but it will only thrive if our forwards deliver. However, I believe our forwards are underrated. They absolutely destroyed SA the other night - in a far more convincing fashion than England managed in the pool match. Not sure if anything can be taken from this or not. But maybe our forwards aren't as far behind the English pack as we were earlier in the year? Hopefully this theory will be tested at some point - as I agree with Redeye, that facing France in the final is an even scarier proposition for NZ than facing England. At least we know what to expect with England.

But will we even get to the final? I'm getting nervous about the Semi already - surely Aussie are capable of more than they have shown to date???

Anyways, best wishes for the weekend to all English, French and NZ forum rugger supporters....

Richie T

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Anyways, best wishes for the weekend to all English, French and NZ forum rugger supporters....

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echo, and here's hoping they're both great games.

Good on ya Richie !

I'd just like to add that if the All Blacks don't beat Australia this weekend it will be proof positive (IMHO) that the powers of darkness grow ever stronger and may very well end up encasing the world in a magma of boiling puss and blood in preparation for the arrival of Beelzebub, and that definitely won't be good for the game of rugby, though it still be a game of two halves. God rest our souls.

I know John will disagree with me, however I genuinely believe that if all teams play to full potential NZ will still win the Cup

Well at least when I say it I know we have beaten you this year in your own back yard, we didn't play that well and you scored an offside try which was the only reason why the game was even close! Remember that 6 man England scrum on our goal line? I just hope some of those memories are haunting your boys if we both make the final.


There's nothing better than a tournament where everyone left in it thinks they can win. Come on England!
John

C'mon guys, prediction time.

NZ 29 Aus 12.

France 12 Eng 15 (Both sides reduced to 13 men after 70th minute brawl over farming subsidies).

Bruce

If Australia play like they did last weekend it'll be NZ 50 Aus 0. Ah well, at least we're finally about to discover whether coach Jones is a complete dunce or an unappreciated genius.

As for the Wilting Roses...........

Ah well, at least we're finally about to discover whether coach Jones is a complete dunce or an unappreciated genius.

To be honest, I don't think he has the players to build a WC winning team, so ultimately although he will take the flak a semi-final spot is the best Australia can hope for.


As for the Wilting Roses...........

Keep it coming! The French coach says everyone hates us, which is good, if there was ever a team in need of some motivation it is us!
John

Well if the contributions to this thread are anything to go by then the RWC is definatly upon us! LOL

Re the comment about the English being arrogant..
I don't think one should confuse arrogance with consistency - what I mean is if a team is not playing to its potential but still winning (e.g. England losing one game out of the last 24 played) then something is right.
But I do agree they need to increase from third gear to fifth on Sunday in order to beat France... If they don't they will lose...

With Richard Hill fit, the battle of the back rows will be very interesting ....

Alan

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Originally posted by John Channing:
_I know John will disagree with me, however I genuinely believe that if all teams play to full potential NZ will still win the Cup_

Well at least when _I say it_ I know we have beaten you this year in your own back yard, we didn't play that well and you scored an offside try which was the only reason why the game was even close! Remember that 6 man England scrum on our goal line? I just hope some of those memories are haunting your boys if we both make the final.


There's nothing better than a tournament where everyone left in it thinks they can win. Come on England!
John

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May the glories of the past bring you some comfort this weekend innit.
Still bangin' on about the 13-15??

SHAPE UP!!!

Oh yeah...predictions..

AB's by 15

France by 8

The golden rule of tournaments is that the semis are always better than the finals and at least one semi is the best game of the tournament. Looking at the four sides for the final the combination that seems most likely to make the final an absolute stinker would be Austrailia Vs France. Austrailia Vs England at least has the potential for such a staggering amount of ill-feeling that it would be compulsory viewing and NZ Vs France is likely to be a feast of Egg Chasing (An omlette?) so these musrt be discounted.

Since we must also find a way for at least one of the semis to be classic I would suggest the following:

-- Austrailia to edge out NZ 13-12 in a bad tempered, penalty strewn encounter with the Aussie's winning kick coming from an obscure rucking infraction that nobody understands ("Chaffing the ballcarrier during breakdown transtition whilst not on your feet" or something).

-- France to beat England 42-38 in the Game of the Tournament as, with England down by 3 tries late in the game, Woodward throws off the shackles and gives Martin Johnson free reign to be the dashing, elegant, expansive player he so obviously is beneath that hulking exterior. England will play some dazzling Rugby and their fans will annoy everyone else in years to come by talking about this as if "the great England side of 2003" had played like this the whole tournament rather than just the last 20 mins.

France 26, Austrailia 6 in the final.

Matthew

PS Who would the NZ contingent support in an Austrailia Vs England final?

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:

I will, btw, be supporting Scotland on Saturday despite my traditional animosity to the shoulder chipped Scots as the spine of their team -- Christian Dailly and The Deadly Don himself -- are two of West Ham's finest.

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The general opinion up here is that it's depressing that we don't have anyone better than Dailly to use in defence (I personally think he's pretty crap) and that despite our problems scoring goals poor old Don is not the answer. I hope he doesn't make the side and I'd even prefer than Stevie Crawford (who I also don't rate) gets a start in front of him. The fact that Don had a good game once for Scotland really can't be enough to make up for his awful recent performances and lack of fitness & pace.

Regards
Steve

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
John,

You obviously have a much deeper understanding of the game than me (to say the least) and wouldn't know a "multi-phased driving game" if it hit me. All I can say is that, as a neutral, the Welsh played much more entertainingly and creatively and with ten times the passion and flair than the English and deserved to win the quarter final even if England were technically mcuh better.

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While the Welsh played well they really can't expect to kick that badly and still win games. They should have led 17 to nil at half-time (as the penalty England scored from should have been given the other way for an earlier infringement) which would have made it much harder for England to recover in the 2nd half.

Yes the Welsh moved the ball well and scored some nice tries, but that's only part of the game and they gave away far, far too many penalties.

Regards
Steve

Dailly has been in fine form this season although I would agree that he is one of those players who, no matter how well they are playing, you always think is capable of having an absolute stinker. He's also a very competent passer of the ball for which he never seems to get credit -- I've seen him regularly hit 50 yard cross field passes that would have the pundits purring if a more lauded player pulled them off. Maybe its just becuase playing Div 1 is about his level.

The Don's career seems destined to be one of wasted potential and one blighted by almost constant injury. But despite his athletic shortcomings he does have a basic quality and technique that is missing from the majority of Bertie McVogts' alternatives. He's one of the few Scottish players you'd be confident of converting a difficult half chance which is what Scotland might well have to make do with at the weekend. In an ideal world of course you wouldn't want him on from the start (he's often effective at West Ham becuase he's coming off the bench late on when his lack of pace and mobility is less of an issue).

Matthew

If any of the AB fans have got a video camera I want to see you all doing the Haka before the game against the Aussies. Facial tatoos optional.
John

Who would we (NZers) back in an England v Australia final?

Australia for sure - so that when we beat them next year in the Tri Nations we get some redemption! But also because (being brutally honest) Aussie winning the World Cup would be slightly more palatable to Kiwis than England winning it. Call it ANZAC spirit, call it anti-England sentiment - I don't know exactly why we feel this way, notwithstanding the fierce rivalry between NZ and Aussie. Hey - take it as a back-handed compliment (to England) if you like....

But this question is hypothetical in the extreme - because NZ should comfortably beat Australia in the semi tomorrow. Yet why do I still feel so damn nervous about it???? I guess it's because we have stumbled before, in situations where we shouldn't have - and often against Australia. The number of cliff-hangers that have gone their way over the last few years has been sickening (for us). Hopefully this one won't be a cliffhanger! I can see it either being rather tight - or alternatively (and more likely) NZ winning very comfortably indeed (which would obviously make the game far less stressful for us).

I wish I wasn't so "into" all of this! It would make the next couple of days so much more relaxing....

Richie T

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Who would we (NZers) back in an England v Australia final?

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This is so hypothetical, it's the equivalent of me saying...'would I rather have the ability to fly or the ability to be invisible'.

France will beat Englad by at least 15 points, and NZ should trounce Aus by a bigger margin.

I would rather be able to fly.

ag

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France will beat Englad by at least 15 points

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Mmm - don't think so.... but hell what do I know!

Last night I dreamt England led NZ by two clear tries with less than 20mins to go.

Looks like it must have been for third place.

Australia's performance reminded me of Germany in the football World Cup. Let's hope they lose the final as well.
John

Ah John,
at least we made it to the final (with sometimes decent, admittedly rarely brilliant football - but then, has Germany ever played brilliant football?)!Well, that's not the topic of this thread any way. Perhaps we can discuss this next year during the European Championship in Portugal.
:-)
Cheers
Uwe

Uwe,
Of course I am immensely jealous of Germany's record in the WC. How a team, with such limited ability, can come from a 5-1 home defeat in the play-offs to then make the final is beyond me!
John