Qb needs dropping out of the window?

Loki posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I am not sure that is going to be that relevant, most consumer access points usually only change at startup.. when it will listen to local interference or activity on specific channels... and choose an optimum one within the limitations of its design.

The best way is to implement overlapping cooperating Wifi access points that are Ethernet connections offering a low power multi zone Wifi... perhaps put an access point in each of the floor hall/landing .. and wire each of them back to a switch. Enable as an ESSID.. and you almost certainly will have reliable high density Wifi... Ubiquiti offer such devices... avoid mesh setups and extenders/repeaters if you can for streaming...

What's wrong with Mesh? Since the demise of Apple's wifi provision. I was think ing that this might have to be my next course...

Mesh usually means multiple wireless connected wifi access points - the reason this is not a good idea is because throughput is directly proportional to the mesh hops and can degrade significantly - clearly this is relevant for streaming.

The optimum config for wifi with respect to reliability and throughput  is multiple overlapping ethernet connected cooperating wifi access points acting as an ESSID. This is typically offered is commercial environments where higher level usage is required,

Mesh is ideal for lower throughout and lower density wifi networks - and has the flexibility of increasing coverage at the expense of throughout. 

SpyderTracks posted:

There are tradoffs for running over wireless, you can only utilise 2.4GHz band, and you'll sacrifice high res playback to a max of 48KHz.

Oh?  Really?  I thought the bandwidth was much higher than that, even on 2.4GHz

It’s a design decision by Naim, not the inherent limitation of 2.4 GHz WiFi. Anyway it’s in the spec for the muso and Qb.

best

David

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Loki posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I am not sure that is going to be that relevant, most consumer access points usually only change at startup.. when it will listen to local interference or activity on specific channels... and choose an optimum one within the limitations of its design.

The best way is to implement overlapping cooperating Wifi access points that are Ethernet connections offering a low power multi zone Wifi... perhaps put an access point in each of the floor hall/landing .. and wire each of them back to a switch. Enable as an ESSID.. and you almost certainly will have reliable high density Wifi... Ubiquiti offer such devices... avoid mesh setups and extenders/repeaters if you can for streaming...

What's wrong with Mesh? Since the demise of Apple's wifi provision. I was think ing that this might have to be my next course...

Mesh usually means multiple wireless connected wifi access points - the reason this is not a good idea is because throughput is directly proportional to the mesh hops and can degrade significantly - clearly this is relevant for streaming.

The optimum config for wifi with respect to reliability and throughput  is multiple overlapping ethernet connected cooperating wifi access points acting as an ESSID. This is typically offered is commercial environments where higher level usage is required,

Mesh is ideal for lower throughout and lower density wifi networks - and has the flexibility of increasing coverage at the expense of throughout. 

Whilst this is all accurate in theory and I'm not discounting any of it, in my experience a good mesh wireless setup is more than powerful enough to provide a solid platform for streaming, certainly where music is concerned.

I have my server upstairs on wifi serving my TV downstairs which is also on wireless. I stream movies at 1080p to the TV regularly and have no buffering or sync issues, a good media server will adjust the stream to combat any issues with the network.

I also stream music from my server via the Plex app on my iPad to a wireless speaker in the kitchen and have no issues.

Whilst there is of course degradation in signal strength between mesh points, so long as you have it setup properly, this won't be to the point where bandwidth limits a stream signal. Streaming really doesn't require that much of a large data stream, it's fairly insignificant especially when dealing with audio (even high res). What is important is that packet loss is kept low, which these modern mesh systems achieve very comfortably.

The need for wired is rapidly becoming obsolete with the advances in wireless technology. It's worth buying a mesh setup from somewhere with a good returns policy like amazon and trialling it before you discount it. It's one of those "you have to try it before you believe it" scenarios, much as I found with the sound on the Muso before purchasing.

Dave, there is no inherent limitation of the 2.4GHz Wifi band in this regard I can see... yes it can be more crowded.. but these days it tends to be more balanced with the 5GHz bands.. as older single band consumer equipment gets replaced. Certainly on elastic data transmission hidef lossless audio is not really much of a challenge on a reasonably well implemented 2.4GHz domestic setup on a recent Wifi protocol.

I think your point that it is a design decision based on the internal device architecture and possibly Wifi chipset is more relevant... and I suspect  the additional cost to implement higher throughputs and newer chipsets effectively wasn’t justified given the sonic resolution of the device and its likely usecase.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

fatcat posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I am not sure that is going to be that relevant, most consumer access points usually only change at startup.. when it will listen to local interference or activity on specific channels... and choose an optimum one within the limitations of its design.

 

I thought these new fangled smart hubs continually monitor channel usage, and switch if appropriate.

Although, logically if your wifi useage is high, the hub will sense this and switch channel.

Switching off auto and manually selecting channels isn’t as complicated as rewiring the whole house. No great loss if it doesn’t work, simply revert to auto.

No I don't think so, proper Dynamic Channel Assignment and Dynamic Bandwidth Selection use requires quite advanced setup to be optimal in a dynamic environment that is probably beyond most consumers. So yes I see commercial equipment using DCA and DBS but not consumer equipment - consumer equipment tends to do this at startup or boot with regard to channels - and bandwidth selection is determined in setup - wider channels offer greater throughput but more prone to interference,

Certainly I would not switch this functionality off on a consumer device unless you have scanned your local channels or interference... you could be giving your self performance throughput issues.

 

 

Well, my virgin superhub has channel optimisation, the options are ‘channel optimisation off’ and ‘channel optimisation on’ under the heading ‘smart wifi’. If you’re a bit nervous about changing the settings, take a screenshot of the default setting before changing anything. I did. I found channel 1 was better than the default 11. However, overnight, I’m pretty sure the channel was switched from 1 to 11, even though the CO was off and selection set to manual.

I also found a significant improvement is gained by switching wireless mode from 802.11b/g/n mixed to 802.11n. My firestick loads pages a lot quicker on this setting.

Apparently set on 802.11b/g/n, the virgin superhub max wifi speed is 54Mbps. (I think). So if you don’t have any ancient wifi devices that requires b or g, try 802.11n. If any device stops working, a few clicks of the mouse will get you back to default.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Dave, there is no inherent limitation of the 2.4GHz Wifi band in this regard I can see... yes it can be more crowded.. but these days it tends to be more balanced with the 5GHz bands.. as older single band consumer equipment gets replaced. Certainly on elastic data transmission hidef lossless audio is not really much of a challenge on a reasonably well implemented 2.4GHz domestic setup on a recent Wifi protocol.

I think your point that it is a design decision based on the internal device architecture and possibly Wifi chipset is more relevant... and I suspect  the additional cost to implement higher throughputs and newer chipsets effectively wasn’t justified given the sonic resolution of the device and its likely usecase.

Simon

Yes that’s what I said, but more briefly than you.

best

David

I have a mesh set up, however each WAP is connected by ethernet. I think what simon is saying is mesh set ups where the only connection is via wifi between the WAPs.

garyi posted:

I have a mesh set up, however each WAP is connected by ethernet. I think what simon is saying is mesh set ups where the only connection is via wifi between the WAPs.

In my case all my mesh points are connected wirelessly and I have no issues.

Yes mesh technically means dynamic routing of the data between access points.. clearly if all the access points are Ethernet wired it’s not really a mesh.. however consumer marketing as often the case confuses and blurs things for punters who are none the wiser.

A mesh setup therefore unless a very high density of wireless access points with have compromised throughput, and it effectively reduces significantly for each wireless hop... this tends not be an issue for very low bandwidth transfers but will be more of an issue with higher throughputs and busier Wifi networks... 

Professionally a few years I did some analysis in this area with a very large Chinese IT company... in the end I ruled out the use of mesh for a given application because of exactly this reason.

Fatcat, yes almost certainly your Virgin Superhab will have optimum channel assignment at boot / start up... as is the case with most consumer devices... it’s the dynamic channel assignment whilst in operation these devices don’t usually offer.. when you restart your Virgin superhub you might see the channel switch based on your environment .. but then I suspect it will sit there until restarted.

yes, turning off mixed mode operation and focusing on n or ac can significantly improve performance as the spectrum is not having to be split up for backwards compatibility / older inefficiency. There are several other settings in Wifi can that can be set to optimise performance... such as channel bandwidth size and collision back off timing .. but best leave this alone assuming your device supports user changes here unless you truly know what you are doing.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Fatcat, yes almost certainly your Virgin Superhab will have optimum channel assignment at boot / start up... as is the case with most consumer devices... it’s the dynamic channel assignment whilst in operation these devices don’t usually offer.. when you restart your Virgin superhub you might see the channel switch based on your environment .. but then I suspect it will sit there until restarted.

yes, turning off mixed mode operation and focusing on n or ac can significantly improve performance as the spectrum is not having to be split up for backwards compatibility / older inefficiency. There are several other settings in Wifi can that can be set to optimise performance... such as channel bandwidth size and collision back off timing .. but best leave this alone assuming your device supports user changes here unless you truly know what you are doing.

Simon, that is not correct.

My virgin 3 hub definitely changes channel while in operation. Yesterday, when you said it didn’t, I changed channel to 1 and switched channel optimisation back on, twice it automatically changed to channel 11. (Just to make sure it did)

When the channel changes, the stream is obviously lost. That’s why I suggested turning channel optimisation off to prevent dropouts yesterday.

 https://community.virginmedia....ections/td-p/3805963

With regards to using 802.11n, you say it ‘can significantly improve performance’, yet you advise not to try it. It’s a simple matter reverting back to mixed, if any wifi devices stop working. See image of settings page in link above. (It’s not rocket surgery)

At the time of my last post (2 hours ago), channel 1 was in use, Channel 6 is now in use.

Luckily my wife wasn’t online when it changed channel. I’d better disable channel optimisation, I don’t want to get into trouble again.

Ok .. if it has proper dynamic channel assignment, you shouldn’t be losing a stream apart from perhaps very occasionally ... it should send a change channel instruction and connected hosts switch... I do wonder if it is working correctly or implemented correctly.. again if it has proper dynamic channel assignment it should have sensitivity settings.. back it off significantly and see if that helps 

Googling Virgin support forums, it does appear the Superhub 3 scans and optimises at boot time, but I haven’t found anything definite from Virgin yet on dynamic changes... and the fact you are loosing connections when the channel switches  and it is changing channels post boot it does feel strange....

Certainly with a pro ESSID envinment connectivity is maintained on my devices I have tried whilst they move between channels or are loadbalanced between APs on the same SSID... usually you only notice the change by the Wifi signal strength bars suddenly changing but no interruption...

So I would be inclined to leave it fixed by disabling it on your Superhub.

Absolutely fascinating thread..... I’m not 100% sure of everything that’s been mentioned......

but I have learnt significantly.....

all contributions much appreciated... thanks 

Update... I have just found an update on the web from VIrgin, and according to Virgin the Hub3 is supposed to only optimise channels at boot up... so you might have a faulty router.....

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

So I would be inclined to leave it fixed by disabling it on your Superhub.

Simon,

My first post in this thread yesterday was.

If the router has this option. Try switching off the routers automatic channel switching capability.

To which you replied.

I am not sure that is going to be that relevant, most consumer access points usually only change at startup.. when it will listen to local interference or activity on specific channels... and choose an optimum one within the limitations of its design.

You're now advising me to follow my own advice.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Update... I have just found an update on the web from VIrgin, and according to Virgin the Hub3 is supposed to only optimise channels at boot up... so you might have a faulty router.....

Simon

Have you clicked on the link I posted this afternoon.

https://community.virginmedia....ections/td-p/3805963

wenger2015 posted:

Absolutely fascinating thread..... I’m not 100% sure of everything that’s been mentioned......

but I have learnt significantly.....

all contributions much appreciated... thanks 

+1 - many thanks ...

I’ve learned a lot.

Apparentley, I’ve been taking part in a secret ‘broadband trial’

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/in...oadband-routers.html

Fatcat, no I was referring to

https://help.virginmedia.com/s...the-best-WiFi-Signal        (#2)..dated Oct 2018

Regarding the advice I was referring to changes post boot up and initial channel selection. I was pointing out the symptoms you described was not valid Wifi operability.. anyway hopefully you got it sorted... bottom line correct operation of channel optimisation doesn’t disconnect the connection... chaos would ensue in many commercial setups if that was the case. By the way ATF is something quite separate and is to do with percentage of throughput as a total of frame throughput on a channel/channels for a particular host..  kind of like a manual non managed version of WMM. I a'ways enable ATF on my access points.. it helps stop rogue/badly setup  hosts spoil your Wifi.

Anyway whatever, not really anything to do with Naim. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Fatcat, yes almost certainly your Virgin Superhab will have optimum channel assignment at boot / start up... as is the case with most consumer devices... it’s the dynamic channel assignment whilst in operation these devices don’t usually offer.. when you restart your Virgin superhub you might see the channel switch based on your environment .. but then I suspect it will sit there until restarted.

yes, turning off mixed mode operation and focusing on n or ac can significantly improve performance as the spectrum is not having to be split up for backwards compatibility / older inefficiency. There are several other settings in Wifi can that can be set to optimise performance... such as channel bandwidth size and collision back off timing .. but best leave this alone assuming your device supports user changes here unless you truly know what you are doing.

In an attempt to improve the performance of my kitchen Muso, as per your "n" only recommendation, I switched my router to "n" only, but my kitchen Muso will not connect.
I then switched my router to g+n it does now connect. It's the same if I revert to the factory setting of "b, g & n".
I will therefore run my router in g+n mode.
The router reported Muso Signal Strength of -53dBm and Signal Rate of 54Mbps remains the same whether I connect using g+n  or  b, g + n.
Therefore, can I deduce that my Muso is not compatible with a pure "n" network?

blythe posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

***SNIP***

 

In an attempt to improve the performance of my kitchen Muso, as per your "n" only recommendation, I switched my router to "n" only, but my kitchen Muso will not connect.
Therefore, can I deduce that my Muso is not compatible with a pure "n" network?

According to the manual, Muso is 802.11/b/g, so your router needs to negotiate down to g.

blythe posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Fatcat, yes almost certainly your Virgin Superhab will have optimum channel assignment at boot / start up... as is the case with most consumer devices... it’s the dynamic channel assignment whilst in operation these devices don’t usually offer.. when you restart your Virgin superhub you might see the channel switch based on your environment .. but then I suspect it will sit there until restarted.

yes, turning off mixed mode operation and focusing on n or ac can significantly improve performance as the spectrum is not having to be split up for backwards compatibility / older inefficiency. There are several other settings in Wifi can that can be set to optimise performance... such as channel bandwidth size and collision back off timing .. but best leave this alone assuming your device supports user changes here unless you truly know what you are doing.

In an attempt to improve the performance of my kitchen Muso, as per your "n" only recommendation, I switched my router to "n" only, but my kitchen Muso will not connect.
I then switched my router to g+n it does now connect. It's the same if I revert to the factory setting of "b, g & n".
I will therefore run my router in g+n mode.
The router reported Muso Signal Strength of -53dBm and Signal Rate of 54Mbps remains the same whether I connect using g+n  or  b, g + n.
Therefore, can I deduce that my Muso is not compatible with a pure "n" network?

The Musos run 802.11g, as do some of the old platform Naim streamers. Why, I have no idea, as n, and even ac, were available long before they were ever released.

Hi Blythe, I looked up the Muso specs on the Naim web  site and indeed it ‘only’ supports 802.11b/g so indeed as you found out it won’t connect to an 802.11n only configured access point... yes I also can’t quite workout why at least 802.11n isn’t supported.. as that would really help streaming... oh well.