1st week with my new system (500-DR, n272, Focal Scala V2 Utopia)

Bob the Builder posted:

 

Firstly how a 272/555/300DR is is the most fantastic system but 272/555/500DR is unbalanced I don't get although personally I would swap the 272/555 for a 252/SCDR of course you would then need a streamer and a dac but these can be very small and inconspicuous.  However lets not throw the baby out with the bath water just yet I'm sure with a little patience and work you will get the sound that you want and should rightly expect,  hi end hifi should be capable of producing the bass you want I have an old Olive Nap 180 driving Dynaudio Contour 3.4s which though not in the same price bracket are still very good speakers almost as big as yours and my system produces lots of bass.

Your room may need some treatment but you look to have done all the right things, big thick curtains, a large rug and lots of things on the walls so you've made a good start although like me it doesn't look as if you have much scope for speaker placement but getting them up on spikes may help as may some isolation platforms.

I see you have lots of vinyl and if you want to really enjoy it you will need a decent deck the Pro-Ject you have is ok but I would be looking at getting something from Rega or even a used Linn LP12 if you buy used you can get a very good LP12 for £1,000 or an RP8 for a little more.  I cannot begin to tell you the difference  a decent record player will make it will make your streamed music sound small and narrow in comparison I have only a Raspberry Pi connected to a Chord 2Qute dac but have owned a Naim ND5XS and also had a home demo with an NDX and neither where anywhere near as good as my LP12.

Anyway good luck I know it is a frustarting hobby at times but all the hard work will pay off and one day you will get the sound you want just don't settle for anything less.

 

Interesting suggestion on swapping 272/555 for 252/SCDR. I'm so new to Naim.  But yes, keep baby in the water!

The vinyl wall. I'm pretty excited to see what this does to this room. At this stage, there is zero bass along the vinyl wall not even in the corner.  Even sticking my head into one of the vinyl cubbies produces no spike in bass anywhere along the back wall (listening to Radiohead "National Anthem").

I'm getting better with the soundstage, but feel it needs to open up more. I've double checked speaker polarity, and even swapped one speaker, but this is not the issue. All the bass is seemingly trapped between the speakers, above waist level. It's like the low ceiling is boxing it directly above/behind the plane of the speakers. Fascinating, but I can't wait to get it to disperse. No matter how far away I move the speakers from the wall, the bass wants to stay between the speakers. 

I am going to update my deck. The Pro-Ject was purchased used a couple years ago. It was the spark that got this audiophile lit, but it needs to go. And I'm guessing everyone here recommends the Superline phono stage...

Mike Sullivan posted:

My media room is around 5m x 3.5m and with a low ceiling, whereas the lounge is a big open plan space. I moved my previous system from the lounge to the media room with Totem Hawk speakers, and the performance was better with the more contained accounting space of the smaller room. I now have a Nova with Totem Forest Sigantures in the lounge and it really hums - but I tried them in the media room, and the Forests need more air to shift than the smaller room has and bass bounces with the lower ceiling. So I think room size and ceiling hieghts can be a factor, and those focals are very big and will want a lot of air to shift?

Exactly. 

Jeredh, I have edited your reply here.  I know you are feeling frustration right now, but please abide by forum rules.  Thanks.

Let’s not panic. Have you tried playing across the shorter length of the room by the windows - this might give better aucoustcs. Turn the couch around 90 degrees to face the windows, wet bar behind you,  and move the speakers in closer.

JeredH posted:

Mike Sullivan posted:

My media room is around 5m x 3.5m and with a low ceiling, whereas the lounge is a big open plan space. I moved my previous system from the lounge to the media room with Totem Hawk speakers, and the performance was better with the more contained accounting space of the smaller room. I now have a Nova with Totem Forest Sigantures in the lounge and it really hums - but I tried them in the media room, and the Forests need more air to shift than the smaller room has and bass bounces with the lower ceiling. So I think room size and ceiling hieghts can be a factor, and those focals are very big and will want a lot of air to shift?

Exactly. Does anybody here want to make an offer on a barely used pair of Scala V2s?

Stay calm. When your 555DR arrives it will transform your 272. Strongly recommend you get that installed then give the system (including the  Focals) at least three or four weeks to settle down....

Just a few thoughts:

You don’t seem to have done much yet In terms of investigating your room - it may need something more drastic than moving speakers and listening position backward or forward and sideways. There are 4 fundamental directions things can face, and then sometimes diagonals can solve awkward rooms... If missing bass is your primary issue as your original post suggested I really do suggest doing some serious testing using REW. (Of course, once you have recovered the bass there would still be a question as to whether you like the speakers’ character.)

I can’t see that the 500 is likely to be an issue, and if you don’t like it you need to consider auditioning the lesser models before following some peple’s suggestions to change to one, and even perhaps compare with other brands of amp.

Spikes and toe in are unlikely to explain completely missing bass, though important for refining the sound.

As for other speakers, everybody’s taste is different. In that size room you could pick almost any floorstander, so take a trip to a dealer or three, at least one stocking your speakers) and listen to a variety of speakers comparing against the focals until you find the character you like. Unfortunately it takes time and effort, but it is not an unenjoyable experience. If you do decide to do that I would suggest ATC SCM50 (maybe the acrive version?) and PMC MB2 as worth hearing - but if your room is the problem you will still need to investigate a placement for them and listening position that works!

I have heard the Scalas driven by a 500 and can reassure you that the amp can drive the speakers perfectly, and in a room larger than yours. The amp is not the issue. At the moment the 272 is the weak point, but that will be much reduced when the 555 arrives. I don’t know if it will be new, but if it is it will need at least a couple of weeks to run in sufficiently for you to make a judgement on whether the 272 is ultimately good enough. 

You should not be thinking about changing speakers at this point. Get the system set up, on a good stand, get the speakers in the spikes. 

I’m intrigued by a wet bar. Whatever it is, maybe you could put a door on it. There is another thread on hear about vertical bass issues, where bass was only present when standing up. This was solved my moving the listening position further from the speakers. That would be worth trying. 

Have you tried playing some test tones through the speakers?

Just test that everything is working and that nothing has been damaged in transit.

Innocent Bystander posted:

If missing bass is your primary issue as your original post suggested I really do suggest doing some serious testing using REW. (Of course, once you have recovered the bass there would still be a question as to whether you like the speakers’ character.)

 

I just ordered a miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone and will be tinkering with this.

Do I rotate the listening positions around the 4 walls of the room before I go down the REW rabbit hole?

REW lets you see what the bass is doing (amongst other things), to understand more clearly thay by ear, so helps you understand what you’re hearing. Given the physical effort it takes I’d be inclined to wait. However, if you’re itching to get on with something, given that the speakers are on castors you could plug in the output of a computer running REW and use its tone generator, putting a single speaker in each of various positions and sweeping while standing or sitting in one spot to hear the peaks and troughs there, and walking around with it playing one tone listening to where the variations are in the room, and from that decide which of the four ways might be the best to explore when you get the microphone.

in any regular position facing a wall, I suggest starting with the listening position (your head position), 38% of the distance from the front to back wall, or if that really is too close 38% from the back, as that is where the response may be flattest (though there are many factors affecting, notably differences with each of the walls and the hole in the corner of your room - then  play with speaker positioning while leaving the microphone there. Once you’ve found best speaker position try varying the listening position  (then speakers again!) 

According to the Specification on the Focal site these have adjustable bass and treble levels. How are these set?

Phil

Filipe posted:

According to the Specification on the Focal site these have adjustable bass and treble levels. How are these set?

Phil

Zero bass perhaps?! Well spotted and maybe critical question!

Filipe posted:

According to the Specification on the Focal site these have adjustable bass and treble levels. How are these set?

Phil

I've switched these crossover points to every possible combination. High treble, low treble, high bass, low bass...everything in between.  I feel at this stage of my setup, i need to get the soundstage correct, and focus on getting a somewhat "even" sound throughout this room.  Then I can fine tune with these corssover points.  Great observation; thank you.

JeredH posted:

Mike Sullivan posted:

 

Exactly. 

Jeredh, I have edited your reply here.  I know you are feeling frustration right now, but please abide by forum rules.  Thanks.

Thank you. I am going to take some time and review the rules again.  I'm new here. 

Have you yet tried playing with the REW Room Simulation, that can often show if there are gross problems with room layout just by using a purely theoretical analysis.  When you have the mike that will give a clearer picture of the actual situation, but it's usually fairly close to the predicted response at LF.

JeredH posted:

JeredH posted:

Mike Sullivan posted:

 

Exactly. 

Jeredh, I have edited your reply here.  I know you are feeling frustration right now, but please abide by forum rules.  Thanks.

Thank you. I am going to take some time and review the rules again.  I'm new here. 

It was your, erm, offer, whether or not it was in jest

Having owned the v1 of the Scala's (I can't imagine v2 being hugely different), I found the bass is dry. Monitor like you could say.

The Scala's I had were not fussy on placement so I think trying to find the sweet spot in the room to warm up the bass is possibly flogging a dead horse, unless you'll be happy with a slightly lumpy bass.

I ran them on the castors and spikes.

If you can, run them long and hard. They take months to break in. 

James L posted:

Having owned the v1 of the Scala's (I can't imagine v2 being hugely different), I found the bass is dry. Monitor like you could say.

The Scala's I had were not fussy on placement so I think trying to find the sweet spot in the room to warm up the bass is possibly flogging a dead horse, unless you'll be happy with a slightly lumpy bass.

I ran them on the castors and spikes.

If you can, run them long and hard. They take months to break in. 

However the OP has an odd room - when I had a problem with my speakers at first in my present room, it was against a backgound of quite satisfactory performance in  4 different rooms of various sizes, so it was a surprise when there was no bass - fully restored after a complete room re-arrangement.

This does not guarantee anything for the OP, but it surely is worth some tome and effort investigating, if it succeeds it would be a better solution than having to sell the speakers and hunt for an alternative.

Okay.  

First - HH the system is not a mullet.  The 272 is more than capable of providing what is required for the 500 and the Scalas.   Yes I think a separate streamer/pre configuration would be better and the 555 PSU will certainly help.

The problem here is that simply the OP didn’t get the opportunity to try the speakers in his own environment.  Sorry!

Regards,

Lindsay

Hi,

Forgive me for not having read all the responses, but I conjecture that some of your interlocutors aren’t now enjoying Scala Utopia V2s in rooms similar in size to yours.  Writing as someone with Imperial Red V2s in a 16’ x 20’ x 10.5’ room, let me join those who counsel not to despair!  Lovely, accurate bass can be had with your speakers in a room with your dimensions. I’d second those who advise you to look to your front end.  Right now I have a number of turntables from the same manufacturer up and running, and my V2s are more than capable of revealing the widely differing bass performance of four different tone arms and more than a dozen different cartridges. Here, the jump from reserved to stonking bass can be a tone arm away.

As for spikes etc., I’d recommend the combination of Nordost Sort Füt, Lock and Kup. Inexpensive they’re not, but yours aren’t budget speakers, and the Nordosts and Scalas seem to have an affinity. Moreover, a Scala Utopia shod with the Sort combo., can be slid about the room with no damage to the hardwood. Our oak flooring remains unscathed at least from the speakers.

This week I moved the speakers around the room, trying them along 3 of the 4 walls, and I'm not sold on the other positions.  My ears hear things best with original set-up: speakers firing length of room, with vinyl along rear wall.  

Today I added 555 DR > Burndy > n272, and there was an immediate, noticeable difference.  The 555 was bought used (thanks Greg!), and he purchased the unit new in 2015 so it is broken in.  The sound came to life on the first song I played (Fearless). After dinner, I put the speakers on spikes on quarters, and that's where I'm at now.  There is a significant improvement in things, and I feel I'm in a much better place.  The low end is more audible, and more depth to the entire soundstage.  The reflection and brightness of this room is definitely a factor, though. I still think the speakers are too big, or the ceiling is too close.  Still a ways away from what I think this system should sound like, but I'm so much happier now.  

Going to run the MiniDSP UMIK-1 and REW software tool this weekend, and will work on room treatments. Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, encouragement et al.  It really helped me "off the ledge"!

Here’s pic of things so far

https://imgur.com/gallery/r234aKv

Can’t wait to upgrade deck and phono stage.  This record player sounds hollow. Its incredible what a system at this level brings out. Mullets get accentuated with a fierceness.

As another forum member said, streamimg CD quality files from QNAP is the best sound (so far). A good table will be a nice addition.

Still, the room is part of the enclosed system. It has such an effect on things.  The bass still has to disperse better in this room.  It’s better, but still needs to expand off the wall from behind the speakers, and within the room.  

Until I get treatments, I’m going to sit back and enjoy.  Things sound better =]

JeredH posted:

Here’s pic of things so far

https://imgur.com/gallery/r234aKv

It looks fantastic, JeredH!

I must say that I like the looks of the red TT.

Good to hear that you’re making progress! Don’t give up though, sounds to me like you haven’t finished yet. 

I’m a little suspicious of those 3 doors in your photo. If they are vibrating with the bass energy, that might not be helping. 

I’m more suspicious of the way these components are housed - a decent rack is vital to get the best out of them.