1st week with my new system (500-DR, n272, Focal Scala V2 Utopia)

Yes, a system of that calibre needs to be housed correctly if you are to get the best from it. I’d strongly suggest a Fraim, or other good rack. In an ideal world it should not be placed between the speakers. With those doors this may not be possible, but if you pull the speakers forward a bit then the impact will be partially mitigated. 

I’d be interested in what difference you feel the addition of the 555PS makes. I got one last year and thought the improvement was fantastic. I’m pleased to read that things are settling down. Do get basics like speaker positioning and equipment support sorted out first. If you get it right, you may find that room treatment is unnecessary. 

Those Scala V2s look gorgeous.  Glad to hear you are making progress.  As some others have suggested you would probably do well to think about a good quality rack.  The improvement that it can make is very significant and often comes as a surprise the first time you hear what a good rack can do. 

This may not be a Naim solution, but the turntable looks like it could do with some help.

I am a fan of the Ikea hifi solutions option. There are reports on other web fora and magazines, in particular look for aptillig on The Audio Beat and Paulsurrounds contributions on WAM.

A butcher block and feet made from cork blocks, Ikea seem to have discontinued their thick pot stand so sanding block will do. If that brings about a difference but is unsightly then Quadraspire do some bamboo isolation plinths or blocks.

The door suggestion above, a couple of cheap Ikea throws tacked to the top of the door frame might give an indication whether this is right?

Honestly it sounds like your system is amp/speaker heavy. While the amp might be well matched to the speakers the upfront gear may not.

No amount of "room" treatments will fix that. It sounds like you have added the PSU and heard an improvement.

Even though it is used gear, give it time to settle in. After that you will have a solid reference on sound quality.

Then find a good dealer who will loan you some things to try and see what is what.

Wait for the upgrade PSU for the 272 and then listen again. Some low to mid level Naim sources don't put that deep bass without the PSU upgrade and might not even after that. So IMO it's the naked 272 choking your system currently. I've used Naim DAC for seven years now and that's my experience. With PSU upgrade the low and high end got plenty more extension. 500DR should help things.

“Today I added 555 DR > Burndy > n272, and there was an immediate, noticeable difference.”

Huzzah! Two essentials for NAIM... separate PSU’s and as much isolation as you can introduce.

HH already covered racking...

It looks to me like you could also do with putting more distance between yourself and the speakers. Can the sofa be moved back further?

Interesting process, no? ????

Ah yes, sorry, I overlooked your comments about the 555PS. It will take a few days to settle down, but the initial improvement sounds promising. 

Everything being suggested here - better rack etc - will all help but I would still maintain that the overriding problem is a speaker that is either not to the OPs liking, or not suited to his listening room, or quite possibly both.   

Regards,

Lindsay

hungryhalibut posted:

Do get basics like speaker positioning and equipment support sorted out first. If you get it right, you may find that room treatment is unnecessary. 

???? JEREDH,....I agree with Hungryhalibut above,..But first...

?Important,..Keep in mind that this takes time, don't rush.

And whatever you do,don't start replacing parts in your music-system..(It is a bad advice),this that you have,you will get to play if you work your way systematically.
Then you can always replace parts in your music-system to upgrade,..But first you'll get what you have to play music.

Then you will far later,..If you want to upgrade,do it for the right reason.
That is to say,..Upgrade to reach a higher level, not to try to get to your installation right.

????Att set up,install,optimize a top music-system usually take at least a year..Small details are usually of crucial importance when approaching the target.

Then..you will also never be really clear,as the experience increases,you can change things that contribute to increased musical Soundquality.

?things like how much you should draw for your curtains on the left in the picture,..test different modes in connection with speaker movements.
?be aware that a parameter effect a different parameter.
?write up what you do,note what distances from walls etc.
You do that so you can go back and test again.
?which mat,..or the placement of the mat in front of the loudspeakers can be of great importance.
This applies to all furnishings in the room,..Test,..Change..Evaluate.
?small absorbers in the ceiling at the first "ceiling reflex" can have decisive impact..also think of the first "wall reflex".

Example: A friend with bass problems (to little bass),..in his big active DBL-system.
Small absorbers in the ceiling at the "first roof reflex" solved the problem.

He had previously tried everything,even had there a Professor of acoustics to measure up the room,etc..nothing helped,..in addition to these small absorbers in the ceiling... 20 • 100 cm (2 pieces).

But first,..Try a hifi-rack instead between the speakers.
The best thing is not to have anything between the speakers,because it prevents the speakers from "playing together".
You might be able to borrow a rack from your dealer and try it out,..even a cheap Quadraspire Q4 is better than what you have now.
What you have now is anything but optimal.

And a wall-shelf (Vulkan,with the thinner disc), for your turntable will do wonders for the music-quality.

I have never failed to get a music-system to play in a room,..Well once,but then it was a fault of a component in the music system,something we discovered later.
And I've installed hundreds of music-systems in my "hifi life" to friends and acquaintances.

Even in rooms where there has been an opening of 90 cm between the speakers in to another room,..the music in that room been very good after the installation.
Actually one of my better installations.

So,..my advice,..Let this take time and work with what you have.
No so-called upgrades now.

?Keep in mind that a savvy trader can,..”Pretty fast”..Install your music-system so that it plays ”Well”.
But then he only got out 75-80% of the music-system's capacity.
The remaining 20-25% is up to you,..And this is what takes time...at least a year,and that is what makes it ”magically good” ????.

I,..like most of Naim,Linn owners in Sweden,use the evaluation method "Tune Dem".
Something that also all Naim,Linn traders in Sweden use.
The method was developed by Linn and is described at Lejonklou's forum...(previously also on the now defunct Linn's forum).

?Simply described,you work with halved movements all the time.
Example: Place the speakers 10 cm from the back wall,play a song 20-25 seconds...repeat.

-then move the speakers to,..Say 40 cm from the back wall,play the same song 20-25 seconds... evaluate-better,worse.

-halve the distance between 10 and 40 cm from the backwall,..it will be 25 cm from the backwall. Play the same song 20-25 seconds...evaluate-better,worse.

Now you probably understand the principle,..work with halved movements all the time.
In the end you will get down to the movements of 1-3 mm,and you will hear musical differences.
The same is then done with the movements of the speakers sideways.

Note: When you do this,the speakers should stand straight to the backwall,..In other words,no "toe in".
Should it be needed,it is the absolute last thing you do..And it is usually enough with 2-10 mm "toe in".

And..You should listen for the musical presentation,..Forget soundstage and other so-called HiFi and Audiophile parameters...”Sweet Spot" etc.
If you do this right,it will play equally well everywhere in the room,even in the room next to your listening room.

Note: This method takes time to learn,..But let it take time.
You will be pleasantly surprised by the musical outcome.

This was a simple description,..Hope you understand any of the description ????.

????And..don’t forget to ”Dare To Be Openminded".

One of the most skilled at music-system installation in Sweden,Karl at the store ”High Fidelity” in Stockholm (I have presented him in my ”LP12 Radikal-Problem” thread.

For many,many years ago he would install a pair of floorstander,..Active Linn Kaber at a customer.
He was in the customer’s home a lots of times,he tried everything,..but it did not play music.

As the last step,he tried what you should not do according to the "book",..He placed the speakers in the corners of the room.
And..All of a sudden it started playing music.

So with this last little story,..dare to look outside the frame.
Do not lock you in the thinking what you can and can not do,..without.. "Dare To Be Openminded".

Good luck....
/Peder ????

Being open-minded as to positioning is certainly a valid point.

A friend of mine had layout problems in an L-shaped room, the lounge part being the longer part of the L: Against his better judhpgement but for reasons of practicality and domestic bliss  he accepted trying one speaker sat on the  left hand wall, about 6-8 feet from the listening position, square to and almost touching the wall, so pointing across the room with its axis about where his feet were. The other speaker was had its back to the wall opposite the listening position, again square to and almost touching the wall, its axis about 2 or 3 feet to his right. He expected this setup to sound so bad that it would help even SWMBO would accept that it wasn’t a good way to lay out the room - but it actually sounded very good, and stayed like that!

And another L-shaped room solution: listening position with its back to the longer wall part of the L, facing into the wider but shorter part (so a large opening to the listener’s left). As a temporary measure while sorting out other things the speakers were initially placed in the two corners of the room facing the listening position, just a few inches behing and to the side.  The big full-range floorstanders were expected to seriously overblow the bass and te plan was to move them away from the corners - but simply pulling the listening seat forward a couple of feet from the wall resolved it, and the roomhas stayed that way ever since. Best guess is that the bass suckout by the substantial part of the L to the side of the listening position balanced the bass emphasis causeb by the corner positioning.

Equipment is settling and so is the listener, but I’ve never felt so close to REALLY liking something, yet feel so far away. 

The best sounding source to me is my turntable, and I can’t wait to upgrade it.  It is so much warmer, with depth, than the other sources.  I need to get some pointers on TT/phono stages, but that’s a different discussion.

These Focal behemoths sound so much better on spikes, but I still want to work on placement. What is the best way to move these around?  Remove spikes every time? They weigh 190 pounds each

Peder posted:

hungryhalibut posted:

Do get basics like speaker positioning and equipment support sorted out first. If you get it right, you may find that room treatment is unnecessary. 

?Important,..Keep in mind that this takes time, don't rush.

So,..my advice,..Let this take time and work with what you have.

 

 

This was a simple description,..Hope you understand any of the description ????.

Do not lock you in the thinking what you can and can not do,..without.. "Dare To Be Openminded".

Good luck....
/Peder ????

 

 

All very simple, yet brilliant. Yes I understand every point you made, and the advice is logical & sensible. The room is a top factor in any system, and this is my first attempt at really dialing things in these 4 walls, so I will follow the process.  Your advice of small, incremental, measured changes is sage advice; and documenting changes w/ notes is really smart. 

Jumping into this hobby at such esoteric levels tends to create expectations from system performance & output. Yet, I'm still very new to all of this.  Good news is that I know more starting off now than I did when I dropped the hobby 20 years ago (if that makes sense).  Thanks again for helping me along. 

I used a loaner 272 in my 500DR Proac D40R System and it sounded great.   I think I could easily live with it, particularly with the added 555DR PS.  It might be a mullet by comparison to a full blown 552 system, but it is great sounding rig in my opinion.   The272 more than holds its own.  

We use the Herbie's Giant Fat Gliders under the ProAcs to tame the bloom of the bottom port.   Stay with it; you will have a winner after a little tuning.

You are the second person in 60 minutes to recommend Herbie’s.  My Focals sit on casters normally, and spikes are the alternative (preferred). Looks like Herbie’s makes a decoupling glider that accommodates spikes, which I believe I should give a try.

Herbie's Fat Glider is the opposite of a spike.  I needed them to decouple the speaker from the wooden floor to eliminate feedback into my turntable and the rest of the system.   I was getting a lot of boom from the Proacs in my room.   I have been very happy with them.   Try the spikes you have first.  You might put penny coins under the spikes to keep them from digging into the floor until you get them set.

Good luck.

Interesting.  Lack of bass is my current problem. 

And I was thinking Herbie’s would simply allow me to move/glide these heavy ass speakers. So maybe, the decoupling will have a totally opposite effect than what I’m trying to accomplish with the sound.  

It’s possible the gliders need to settle in for a bit when new. I have a pair of Thiel CS1.6 that used to be my main speakers before I got the NBLs, I moved them to our flat in the south of France and initially sat them on rags on the marble tiled floor without using the cone feet and they sounded pretty good. On our next visit I fitted the outriggers and cones and put them on Herbie’s small gliders, they sounded piercingly bright. I left the system powered down for a couple of months and next time we were there the brightness had disappeared entirely. It’s possible I disturbed something putting the speakers on their side to fit the outriggers but they sounded fine following a sea crossing and 800 miles by car so I’m inclined to think it was the gliders settling in.

To the OP - I hope you do realise that your systemis heavily comprimised by the lack of a proper support? Especly isolated, glass shelves.

There were several mentions of that already, and for a very good reason. It does make a literally transmormative difference. So you can move these speakers as much as you want to or ineed search for new ones. But the truth is you are revving the engine, there is a load of noise, but the car is still stuck in the first gear and  you are not going very far....

Hi I had a very similar system ........ in a very small room. The 272 is good but definitely needs the 555ps ........ when you connect that your jaw will hit the floor........as Chrissu pointed out get a good equipment rack - the 272 is quite microphonic and sensitive to placement.......... preferably a Fraim. When I used the 272/555ps/500dr I found it excellent with extremely good agile bass.........I suggest the speakers are spiked. Also the power chords need to be powerlines ......... ensure all cable contacts are really clean. Your set up should sound excellent. I went from 272 to a 552 with NDS .......... and yes you get more of everything.........but it is the law of diminishing returns bang for buck the 272/555ps dr is very very good. The trouble is when you have a 272 it is very expensive to upgrade.....as it means a preamp and source change. However, I think in the not too distant future - there will be an upgraded 272......... One last thing run this system in ... keep it powered up 24/7 and run a radio station through it........  are your SL cables new? the din to xlr's are notorious for long burn in periods....

Speaker placement - and room acoustics are super critical - get the basic electrical setup right - wait for the 555ps it will do allot for the bass.... run it in and then move the speakers around..... HH is correct - don't expect gobs of bloated bass ........ Naim is not about that - you should end up with a very agile fast bass which underpins everything rhythmically.........  

One last thing......the only gripe I had with the 272 was the headphone amp which I thought was not as great....it was ok.

Let us know how you get on.........

JeredH posted:

Equipment is settling and so is the listener, but I’ve never felt so close to REALLY liking something, yet feel so far away. 

The best sounding source to me is my turntable, and I can’t wait to upgrade it.  It is so much warmer, with depth, than the other sources.  I need to get some pointers on TT/phono stages, but that’s a different discussion.

These Focal behemoths sound so much better on spikes, but I still want to work on placement. What is the best way to move these around?  Remove spikes every time? They weigh 190 pounds each

The answer is to get them in the right place before fitting the spikes. Or, if they are on Naim chips, you can have the spikes on and slide them around without damaging the floor. If your floor is solid and you have no boom, I’d forget about the various decoupling feet for now. Just get them in the right place and get the spikes on. And get a good stand. 

Is this on  a wood floor??? A friend of mine as a temporary measure - retained the spikes - and sat speakers on cheap bamboo chopping boards (Ikea) on wood he was able to use thin felt furniture pads under bamboo - this allowed him to slide speaker around with ease.....on carpet he was able to slide bamboo over.......it worked as a temporary measure ........ until the correct location was found.........hope this helps...

JeredH posted:

Peder posted:

hungryhalibut posted:

Do get basics like speaker positioning and equipment support sorted out first. If you get it right, you may find that room treatment is unnecessary. 

?Important,..Keep in mind that this takes time, don't rush.

So,..my advice,..Let this take time and work with what you have.

 This was a simple description,..Hope you understand any of the description ????.

Do not lock you in the thinking what you can and can not do,..without.. "Dare To Be Openminded".

Good luck....
/Peder ???? 

All very simple, yet brilliant. Yes I understand every point you made, and the advice is logical & sensible. The room is a top factor in any system, and this is my first attempt at really dialing things in these 4 walls, so I will follow the process.  Your advice of small, incremental, measured changes is sage advice; and documenting changes w/ notes is really smart. 

???? JEREDH,.....You have a fun trip in front of you,sometimes frustrating...but ultimately funny,for the result will be worth it ????.

Keep in mind that the simple can be the hardest to understand,..apply.!
I have friends who after several years,still can not understand,apply "Tune Dem".
So don't give up,..because as I said,the musical result will be well worth the effort.

?Regarding what Hungryhalibut and Richieroo wrote about speaker movements,..I wouldn't choose that options to move the speakers.
If you work with "Tune Dem" as your evaluation-method,you will end up with speaker movements of 1-3 mm,..and will hear musical differences in that small speaker movements.

Then it is important that the speakers are on the foundation that they should do ultimately,..that is to say Spike's.
If the loudspeakers are on a foundation other than Spike's during movement,you evaluate each movement based on the wrong conditions.
And when you then screw your Spike's on,the result will change significantly,and you may not have found the best placement for your speakers.

The best you can have during your Spike's at speaker movements is,..as also Hungryhalibut writes,..namely Naim Fraim Chips.
Then you can putt your speakers without any problems even if they are very heavy.
Without these Naim Fraim Chips it is impossible to make small movements on such large speakers.

But you have to stand on your knees and putt at the bottom of the speaker at your Spike's.
Best is also if you have a friend who can measure the distance while you putt.
Then it goes faster,but many times I have done this alone as well.
It will be good training for the legs to jump up and measure,..and then down on your knees and putt the speaker????..
You can also use a laser to measure the distance.

The best thing about these Naim Fraim Chips is that they also improve the musical performance.
No matter what floor you have (yes,we have tested this many times),..these Naim Fraim Chips also improve performance if you have them under your HiFi-rack,(also tested many times on different hifi-racks).

?IMPORTANT: Your speakers must stand "Rock Solid" on these Naim Fraim Chips at each evaluation situation,...no rattling.

Chord also has a variant on these Naim Fraim Chips,made in titanium.
They are three times more expensive,nothing you need now.
Yes..they sound better,..but just mention it so that you should know,for maybe any upgrades in the future.

Linn has a variant on Naim Fraim Chips called Skeet,..they also work to use in speaker movements.
They are cheaper,..but sounds worse,the result will then be better to have your speaker Spike's directly on the floor.
But during your speaker movements,they work.
But Naim Fraim Chips are much better as I've written above.

? Jeredh,..Please post a picture of how your Spike's look,..I've been looking but can't find a picture.

/Peder ????

Virtually all you are doing without the spikes is getting the speakers in the right place to give a good image and to avoid boomy bass. You can then put the spikes on quite happily. I’ve never found tune dem to be remotely useful - the idea that you can hear a meaningful difference from a 20 second blast of music is just daft. And I defy anyone to hear the difference from moving speakers 1 to 3 mm. You just can’t. All this does is over complicate things. If a speaker isn’t going to work in a room, you can move it around 1mm at a time for the rest of your life and it still won’t work. 

hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve never found tune dem to be remotely useful - the idea that you can hear a meaningful difference from a 20 second blast of music is just daft. And I defy anyone to hear the difference from moving speakers 1 to 3 mm. You just can’t. 

???? Hungryhalibut,....I do not have time now,but gets a little shocked that you express yourself as you do.

Then you and all of us in Sweden within Naim and Linn have completely different levels of experience.
And also many in the UK,USA etc.,etc.

I have yet in my HiFi life,..NEVER encountered anyone who has not heard the difference of 1-3 mm,when approaching the goal of their speaker placement.
This in my 35 years with experience of music-system installation,this also applies to those I relate to from other countries.

If you do everything right in your music-system installation,you hear these differences.
Even beginners like me,we demonstrated this for hear this.
But it's okay,..We have different experiences,but to write that the advice I give is stupid...yes it is to go a little to long ????..

I,..we'd gladly demonstrated this to you if we lived closer together,but many,many traders..also in the UK use this method.
It was developed by Ivor and Julian during the time they cooperated.

Now back to work ????.

/Peder ????

When setting up the allaes in my spare room the difference between  one note bass and a nice even bass was 5mm in the distance to the wall behind. Moving them was made easy by the fact I could pick the blighters up. That didn't work so well with NBLs with the transit bolts out, even walking them was tricky. In that case the dealer set the distance to the wall with the spikes out but of course I had to check it  for myself with the spikes fitted and anyway it was down to me to optimise the latteral positions, the dealers distance was spot on by the way. What was quite noticeable with the NBLs was the change in emotional communication that 5mm effected, I don't know the tune test but hearing emotion in a voice was quite easy. I've played around with the Sumiko Masterset method too (google it) and when I first got my Thiels (later to move to France once replaced by the NBLs) it was quite useful in getting a handle on things but it can identify several possible positions with different characteristics. My first locations were ultimately too light in the upper bass but a second attempt found positions with a bit more wall reinforcement that cured that.