1st week with my new system (500-DR, n272, Focal Scala V2 Utopia)

Peder posted:

 

I have yet in my HiFi life,..NEVER encountered anyone who has not heard the difference of 1-3 mm,when approaching the goal of their speaker placement.
This in my 35 years with experience of music-system installation,this also applies to those I relate to from other countries.

 

Yes you can hear the effect of small movemens - you only have to move your head a bit from side to side of front and back while playing something with extented tounds at high frequencies to hear the effect (useful at a too-loud Focus gig with flautist Thijs Van Leer...) That said, movements of less than 3mm will only be evident in the highest frequencies - but are arrelevant because your head moves by that even sitting very still, and in normal sitting, and even sitting still but after rising and sitting again, your head will doubtless be more than 3mm different, so there is absolutely no point in trying to position speakers more precisely.

As for the ‘tune’ approach as you’ve described previously, holding a tune is not the be all and end all of music, and I want the whole thing to sound good - e.g. if the ‘tune’ is great but other parts of the music I like are not there, or not presented right, I’m not interested.

You guys are great, and I'm anxiously hurrying up this process, which isn't going to work.  

• the 4 doors in this room are all hollow, and I am giong to replace them with solid core doors in the coming weeks.  My ears tell me, and I really feel, this is going to make a big difference, particularly since the doors are so close to the speakers.  
• I understand I need a better rack, and will be purchasing one sooner than later. 
• The room is too bright, reflections are happening, and I believe i need treatments. 
• I have connected the UMIK-1, but haven't learned how to test sounds using the REW software that I downloaded.  Working on this in coming weeks. I've asked the guy at GIK Acoustics if he wants to see "sound files" made of my room using this equipment, and waiting his reply.

As far as speaker placement, I'm of the mentality that small, incremental movements will make a big difference.  I am going to be patient with this part of the process, however I have so many other things to accomplish before this fine tuning.  

I will say, my system sounds really good, the clarity it wonderful, and I'm working on a deeper, more dynamic/full sound.  Again, I have work to do.  Appreciate you guys letting me vent on your forums. My wife designs kitchens/baths and wants to set up lasers in the room to help with speaker placement. First I need to break her the news that the media console we bought less than 6 months ago is about to be scrapped & replaced with a new rack.  Good news about her is that once I tell her this, she will not let me sleep until I get moving on this. Love her. 

Also, I did install the 555-DR PS last weekend and it make significant improvements.  

Back to work.......

Jered, here is something that happened today, and I hope you find it useful. A record I listen to quite often, Nachtfahrten by the Michael Wollny Trio, has unbelievably deep bass on the first track. I’d not played it since changing to a Fraim a few weeks ago. Previously I had a Quadraspire SVT bamboo, which is far from shabby. Anyway, I put it on this morning and the extra bass depth was unbelievable. I was really surprised and didn’t know my speakers were capable of such depth, particularly in my modestly sized room, and with not a trace of boom or overhang. I suspect you’d find an even greater difference in moving from your media unit, so I’d heartily recommend a Fraim to you. 

Most speakers have a wide horizontal dispersion and a narrow vertical output from the tweeters.  That 1-3 mm might not be so important in incremental shifts for bass and lower midrange, but getting the rake angles super symmetrical or dead level would be very important - especially with such a large speaker as the Scala to get the tweeters facing true with each other.

I would put the laser pointer or a fine spirit level on the pedestal to check once your more finalised on the positions.

JeredH posted:

You are the second person in 60 minutes to recommend Herbie’s.  My Focals sit on casters normally, and spikes are the alternative (preferred). Looks like Herbie’s makes a decoupling glider that accommodates spikes, which I believe I should give a try.

Those are the ones I tried before moving to Stillpoints. The Herbie’s aren’t bad, and do effectively mask most of the boom. The Stillpoints, on the other hand, banish it entirely. Both enable easy movement of heavy speakers.

You pays your money........!

This thread is like mentioning at a party you have a bad back...a hundred cures come your way.

G

Are the speakers in phase? Sorry if that’s a daft question 

Hi jeredh.

Allow me to suggest ( and here I would agree entirely with HH) that you are so far away from your end goal in experiencing a remotely satisfying sound from your rig. At this stage DO NOT get hung up on milimeters. Your room looks a nightmare with a very low ceiling and looking at your pics initially on this thread, there are so many variables at play. What are the dimensions, what is the structural composition of everything surrounding your speakers ie floor, ceiling, walls. At this stage you are not even able to play the speakers with an equal distance to the side walls. Both speakers and your seating position will initially have to be moved round in big chunks ie 1-2 metres at a time to get a hint of tonal balance. After that point is achieved, you can start adjusting speaker position in halves until you find your sweet spot. Not till this happens, I wouldn’t worry one jot about spikes. Also initially ‘ walk your room’ with a tune playing, which you know well and maybe particularly like for its bass content and see how the bass volume changes- you might be amazed how much it changes in various locations! 

Looking at your room I would whole heartedly recommend, that you get an acoustically professionally skilled person out to help you. I also think that you will have to get some room treatment ( diffuser/ absorber panels) to assist with in particular first ceiling reflections. 

I have myself been on a recent journey with a new and smaller hifi room after a house move, and am still battling on. Dont give up but PLEASE do not a this stage get ‘ lost in detail’.

Also try and use Dynaudio’s rule of thumb regarding speaker placement, which operates by dividing your room into 1/5ths of its square at least as a starting point. This means that neither seating nor speaker position should be less than 1/5 th from side walls and back wall. This worked a treat in my case. Bass wave cancellation in your room can ofcourse mean that you may end up with operating on a 1/4 - 1/3 basis in the end, again who knows? 

Good luck and most importantly get HELP ????????

ATB Peter

911gt3r posted:

what is the structural composition of everything surrounding your speakers ie floor, ceiling, walls. At this stage you are not even able to play the speakers with an equal distance to the side walls.

Quickly learned I'm so far from any type of finish line it's ridiculous. Good help in these forums though. I'm determined to get a Fraim soon.

At the moment I'm kicking tires an looking at different options for placing a turntable on the wall vs Fraim, which got me thinking about structure. Its a stick & brick tudor house in suburbia USA, built in 1978, with a sheetrock and 2x4 interior structure.   This room is elevated above my garage, which seems like a negative to my ears.  I'm working with GIK Acoustics and sent them measurement sound files of my room to get things started.  They asked for my room dimensions , equipment and budget, and recommended just short of $3,000 worth of treatments.  I asked them if they wanted to analyze my sound files after their recommendations  and of course they do

A contractor came by yesterday and measured the 4 hollow  entrance doors in the room that are near the speakers, and will have these replaced with solid doors in a week or so.  Working on little things that I hope will make a big difference. Hah I've been laughing that I auditioned the Focal speakers in the basement of a New York City audio store, in a finely tuned room full of treatments, and I'm sitting here complaining about how my space is sounding so far.   

To the dude who asked about speaker phase, yes that was covered earlier.

We are somewhat spoilt here in the UK with most dealers willing to arrange home demos, which is especially beneficial with speakers.  But you know you like the Focals so with patience and a little work on room treatment etc I'm sure you'll get there and eventually these teething problems will be forgotten.    

This thread is like mentioning at a party you have a bad back...a hundred cures come your way.

Painful wisdom tooth........?? ???? P

My Scalas are v1 l purchased them second hand from my dealer who installed them and they haven’t moved since,in my room ( through lounge) they fire down the room,l have thick rug in front of the speakers and large pictures on either side of the walls ( no glass in pictures), to my ears since l got theND555 it sounds rather nice,hope this helps,and the Scalas do need spikes!.

Sorry I missed the earlier mention of the speaker phase. Hope you get it all as you want it, I’m watching with interest

It’s been a minute; Happy New Year. I should have the 4 hollow core doors replaced with solid MDF doors in the next couple weeks.  Meanwhile I got a microphone and sent sound byte files to GIK Acoustics.  Is GIK my best resource?

Here is some of Jame’s feedback:

”In addition to previous comments on the bass response, the impulse response shows a LOT of strong reflections, within -20dB of the initial impulse, all the way out past 70ms. This tells me that the room will sound quite uncontrolled and jumbled, with an indistinct soundstage/image. Treating early reflection points on the side walls, ceiling, and rear wall behind you is the first step to improve this.”

 I’m stoked to be getting the solid core doors and room treatments. My plan is to let my ears experience this,  then will add Frame.

And, any opinions on makers of room treatments? I thought I’d go with GIK’s products since they are “dialing in” my system thus far.  I know I need ceiling treatments, and am wondering if some treatments are prettier than others.  Of course function should precede looks. TIA

Maybe only relevant to panels in the horizontal middle section of walls, but GIK do ‘art’ panels which can be printed with any image of your choice - and when I asked they said that could be done across the range not just limited to the definea art panels. Otherwise maybe coloured the same as the wall/ceiling behind?

Probably a silly question but have you connected the speaker cables in the correct 'left right' orientation? Naim are unusual in that the left speaker is connected to the right speaker terminals on the power amplifier (as you look at the amplifier from the front). Hence the speaker cables cross over behind the power amplifier. It's certainly a cable layout which I hadn't expected when I first bought Naim although I know there are reasons for it historically.

whsturm posted:

Probably a silly question but have you connected the speaker cables in the correct 'left right' orientation? Naim are unusual in that the left speaker is connected to the right speaker terminals on the power amplifier (as you look at the amplifier from the front). Hence the speaker cables cross over behind the power amplifier. It's certainly a cable layout which I hadn't expected when I first bought Naim although I know there are reasons for it historically.

Yes, I made this mistake the day I set up the system.  It's been corrected; thank you.

Have you managed to get the output from REW to play on the system yet?

The best way is to use an optical lead if your computer has an optical output.
If not, use a cheap USB to TosLink (i.e. optical) converter / soundcard with optical out.
If not that use an external USB soundcard
If not use the computer's analogue out.

Jeredh: Focals always give less bass than one might expect by their size. Put some decent power cables on the 555 and the 500, things will improve. Or go ProAc or PMC 

The Bass on my Scalas IMO are very nice ,not to much ,as the NDS evens out more it just keeps getting better .regards Bob.

I use Stillpoints Ultra 5s under my Scala v1s. To me they were a huge improvement on the spikes. My room is smalller than the ops but the Scalas sound great.