Naim DAC – a dealers initial perpective

Posted by: Rodborough on 20 December 2009

Having now had the new Naim DAC for almost two weeks I thought I would share some initial thoughts on something that is for me at least still very much a work in progress, it is a shame that the release has been delayed causing it’s appearance at one of the busiest times for dealers even in normal circumstances and this combined with the immanent increase in VAT to 17.5% next month has exacerbated this situation somewhat.

After allowing a few hours for the new DAC to acclimatise, always a danger of condensation when new equipment arrives in this extremely cold weather, but this gave me time to assemble all the necessary paraphernalia, just as well we had the Naim DC1 in all three versions RCA – RCA, RCA – BNC & BNC – BNC, also to hand was the CD5XS (BNC digital out), CDX2/2 (BNC digital out), HDX (RCA digital out), Linn Sneaky & Majik DS, Apple iPod, iPhone & MacBook, some Naim Powerline’s & HiLine’s and XPS2 & CD555PS.

It seemed a good idea to start off with the CD5XS, into the DAC using the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC), it has to be said that the sound was pretty aggressive, not unlike the old CDX on acid, common with brand new Naim that is neither burnt in, run in or warmed up, but after only a few minutes it begun to improve/calm down but I could not resist a quick comparison between CD5XS & CDX2/2 and was not totally surprised that there was not much between them at this point, I thought perhaps at the very least an overnight with music running through it might provide a better opportunity to make some more meaningful comparisons.

The next day the Naim DAC was transformed but I decided to begin with a straight comparison of CD5XS versus CDX2/2, using standard mains cables & interconnects, these are after all the best 5 series and CDX variants to date and both performed extremely well through our reference system with the CDX2/2 being the clear winner, although on a personal note I do find that the CDX2/2 can tilt a little in the direction of a slightly forward presentation to achieve higher levels of detail.

Via the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC) the new DAC was added to the CD5XS the improvement was breathtaking it brought out all of the detail whilst preserving the CD5XS units very musical sound and was a clear winner over the CDX2/2, to be fair to the CDX2/2 it does cost a little more CD5XS/DAC £3700.00, CDX2/2 £3,250.00 (VAT @ 15%), but in my view the best £450.00 extra it would be possible to invest, given the many other benefits the DAC is going to bring to future system development.

The next obvious step was to connect the DAC to the CDX2/2 once again a breathtaking improvement and slightly better than the CD5XS/DAC, in this configuration the CDX2/2 with DAC comes out at £5,200.00, £1,500.00 more than the CD5XS, not quite enough to add an XPS2 but certainly enough to add a HiLine and a Powerline to the DAC bringing the CD5XS/DAC/PowerLine/HiLine combination to £4,650.00 against the CDX2/2/DAC at £5,200.00 and now the CD5XS was the clear winner, and of course these benefits (adding HiLine & PowerLine) are shared by any other source components now running through the DAC.

Naturally the next step was to connect the CDX2/2 to the now slightly upgraded DAC and once again the CDX2/2 stamped its authority as the slightly superior combination, adding the PowerLine & HiLine to the DAC raisers the price stakes of this combination to £6,150.00 so my next experiment was to remove the PowerLine & HiLine and add an XPS2 to the CD5XS/DAC combination this being just £400.00 more at £6,550.00 and once again the CD5XS/DAC/XPS2 combination was the clear winner over the CDX2/2/DAC/Powerline/HiLine combination at £6,150.00 and a trend was beginning to emerge. Whilst in standalone operation the CDX2/2 is a superior CD player to the CD5XS the introduction into the mix of the Naim DAC has a levelling affect even though the CDX2/2 always comes out slightly ahead, that £1,500.00 price advantage that the CD5XS has though, if carefully invested in upgrades to the DAC, brings about advantages not only to the replay of CDs but of course to any other source components utilising the Naim DAC, I concluded my experiments through the following combinations:

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2 (£8,050.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£7,500.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£9,000.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£8,945.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£10,445.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy, HiLine (£9,500.00)

Up until this point the CD5XS combinations were often less expensive and yet superior, of course usually the XPS2 & CD555PS power supplies in former pre DAC days were upgrades available only to the CDX variants and would place them into a much higher league than any of the 5 series CD players adding the DAC however now makes these upgrades available to the CD5XS as well.

Having now taken the CD5XS to its current highest level of potential upgrades all that was now left to do was to connect the CDX2/2 to the fully upgraded DAC and the edge that the CDX2/2 had enjoyed throughout made it the best possible combination coming in at £11,000.00 over the CD5XS at £9,500.00.

I have gone back to this when time has permitted over the past couple of weeks and although the DAC continues to improve it has no affect upon the above results.

A reshuffle of the demonstrations rooms here has now taken the DAC off the reference system and into our mid to high-end room so that work could continue by introducing the NaimUnity, HDX/DAC, Linn DS/DAC, even iPod & MacBook/DAC into the equation and I will write more on that later in the thread.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by ken c
Norman,
very well written and useful report especially to some of us who are reviewing cd replay in the context of streamers and now the naim DAC. some of the configurations are quite close in price to the cds3/xps (£8850) or even cds3/555ps (£10895)-- and so it will be interesting in time how the dac based systems that you have initially looked at stack up against this. but of course, i realise that these kinds of comparisons take a lot of effort to assess properly, so look fwd to more in due course when you have a chance...

well done...

enjoy
ken
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
Who are you trying to impress with your narrow view?
Nobody, but you can't expect a Naim dealer on a Naim forum to do a comparative review of DACs. And if they did - what would be the point. That type of thing is best left to PFM or What DAC?

Norman has explained that he found the CDX2-2 gave better results with the Naim DAC than the cheaper CD5XS, but it depended on whether a hi-line, power-line or standard cable was in use. I found that a useful observation.

I can't afford a CD555, but a £2k DAC possibly. Not sure how that move would help me enjoy other sources either.

However, my interest is should I have my CDX2-VAM1250 converted to use as a transport. If the answer is yes then I can power the DAC with my PSU. This would give me a CD transport and some other sources to use with the DAC. There are surely lots of CDX2 owners who must be wondering about whether conversion makes sense. As this promises the best of all worlds.

As for the DACs ability to make BBC 7 sound better - I'd still be interest to hear it. That doesn't preclude the use of Internet radio.

I look forward to Norman's next posts on his findings with the Naim DAC.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Joe Bibb
ROTF,

I believe you know that Norman stocks Linn.

Comparisons with the Linn streamers will be of general interest, even if not to you.

If there is no room here for such comparisons, and the discussion limited to brand fans, it would be a duller place imo. No company with faith in a product need fear (fair) comparison.

Joe
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by u5227470736789439
Patience os a virtue, and one it seems that remains the preserve of fully mature adults ...
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
believe you know that Norman stocks Linn.
Yes indeed - but IMHO, the Linn Akurate DS is no match for the Naim CDX2-VAM1250 in the way it draws the listener in to the music. So if the new Naim DAC was only at Linn Akurate DS level then I'd pass.

I've heard the Linn player a few times and was underwhelmed - now when it comes to vinyl then that's a different matter ....

Still others may disagree - and why not.
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
Patience os a virtue, and one it seems that remains the preserve of fully mature adults ...
Dear George

It is at least a very polite civilised argument - almost a discussion.

Merry Christmas to you and Joe - Rotf
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Joe Bibb
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:


Merry Christmas to you and Joe - Rotf


And to you both.

Joe
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by glevethan
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
I believe you know that Norman stocks Linn.
Comparisons with the Linn streamers will be of general interest, even if not to you.
Joe


Both Norman and another frequent trade poster Winker

I am not quite sure if they are comfortable with making public DS vs HDX/DAC comparisons on the Naim forum - although it would be interesting. I guess there are certain limits.

Gregg
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by glevethan
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
I've heard the Linn player a few times and was underwhelmed


Many here have been quite impressed - different strokes for different folks.
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Rodborough
Having now addressed what was an extremely pressing issue for me at least the CD5XS versus the CDX2/2 in the new dawn that the Naim DAC brings it was time to turn my attention to other digital sources and comparisons. It has been difficult to pigeon hole the new Naim DAC, it is not the uPnP DS (Digital Streamer) I would have liked to have seen Naim introduce, nor is it merely an upgrade to some existing components in the range such as the CD5XS, CDX2/2 & HDX for example.

Adding the Naim DAC to any Naim system is perhaps more helpfully thought of as adding a digital hub, or for us whose experience now encompasses almost 5 decades an input expander but any comparisons to the QED type input expanders from the 60’s/70’s should thankfully be confined to history.

Technically this is of course Naim’s 4th DAC, the first being built into the AV2, second in the Supernait, third in the NaimUnity and now the standalone DAC. I did not have the AV2 to hand so the only comparisons I could make were against the NaimUnity and the Supernait, actually until this point I had never compared the NaimUnity in this respect to the Supernait and using a CD5XS, DC1 as source with standard interconnects and mains leads they both performed to a very similar standard, with perhaps the Supernait having a slight edge.

Next using the Supernait I compared the CD5XS through the Supernait’s own built in DAC to the New DAC the upgrade is nothing short of astonishing and this with standard interconnects and mains leads throughout, I suppose this was to be expected but I decided to try it for completeness.

iPod’s et-al do not really do it for me, although I do like them for background music when reading or dining with friends as one is not drawn into the music which causes me to read the same paragraph over and over again, but for sure this does make the iPod produce the best sound I have ever heard from one but still no cigar from this old dinosaur.

Next up was the Apple MacBook, this was connected to the DAC, TOSlink to optical digital input, and this was a major step up from the iPod & iPhone, I actually had to pinch myself to realise that this sound quality was coming from a Laptop computer, if I was being picky and I suppose I must be I did feel that perhaps the sound was a little muted and lacking in dynamics but Ian the digital guru here says he has not put as much work into developing The Apple route as he has done on our LAN and NAS drives and he feels confident that he will be able to match or better the CDX2/2 given time, others may already have done so.

It was actually the HDX I was anxiously wanting to try through the new Naim DAC a little silliness to begin with let’s try playing a CD in the HDX its actually quite good but not as good as the CD5XS when both are played through the DAC, but this is not what the HDX is about really.

The HDX is quite possibly the most improved Naim component when the new DAC is added when playing files stored on the internal HDD (Hard Disk Drives) it really is quite spectacular, one could speculate that you have removed Digital to Analogue conversion and the resulting analogue signal away from the internal HDD and a whole bunch of other things going on inside the HDX and this added to the superior performance of the new DAC the HDX is an entirely different proposition, my next upgrade here was to stream through the HDX from our NAS dives via the LAN (Local Area Network) as this now provides better sound quality on standard 16/44.1 material and gives access to our growing library of 24/96 files, but let’s stick to 16/44.1 for the moment.

For some reason best known to Naim the CDX2/2 has a BNC output whilst the HDX has an RCA (The BNC does sound better if the option is there by the way) it was possible to connect both the CDX2/2 using our DC1 BNC – BNC whilst at the same time using the RCA to BNC version to connect the HDX helpfully there are two BNC inputs on the new DAC.

Well in my view the HDX comprehensively outperformed the CDX2/2 in every respect and on all musical genre with both benefitting from the new Naim DAC, I even tried swapping over the two BNC’s on the back of the DAC just in case one input was better than the other with no noticeable effect, the CDX2/2 already had the advantage of BNC at both ends an option not available on the HDX.

Systematically adding all the possible upgrades of Powerlines, HiLines XPS2 & CD555PS made all the expected improvements just as it had done with the CD Players but the HDX preserved its superior edge throughout.

Streaming 24/96 files through the HDX/DAC and every time the second LED (HD) lit the combinations entered a different realm, perhaps this is something for the future though when more material is available on 24/96 let’s see what the next decade brings on that front.

It’s getting late so I will post the final part tomorrow this involves the final experiments employing the Linn Sneaky DS (Cara 4) and Linn Majik DS (Cara 4 & Dynamik)

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by js
This all follows what we observed from a short visit with a preproduction model that we knew wasn't completely up to date. We didn't have time to do all the cable upgrade variations but your observations fit nicely into what we heard. I still tend to recommend hardware over cables long term as a cable is an easy future upgrade for an even better end result but that's the sort of thing a client can balance for himself. Your sort of dem is what allows that to happen in a rational way.

Nicely done and appropriate to get this specific with an actual production version. New upgrade path for CDPs or HDX is DAC before supply and it's nice that HDX owners already with supplies will not be disappointed with the result when moving it over to the DAC.
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by glevethan
quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
It’s getting late so I will post the final part tomorrow this involves the final experiments employing the Linn Sneaky DS (Cara 4) and Linn Majik DS (Cara 4 & Dynamik)

Warmest regards
Norman
Partner - UHES


Norman

Thank you for the write up. Why stop with the Sneaky and Majik - you know what we want Winker

Respectfully
Gregg
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by BobF
quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
It’s getting late so I will post the final part tomorrow this involves the final experiments employing the Linn Sneaky DS (Cara 4) and Linn Majik DS (Cara 4 & Dynamik)

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES


Norman

Thankyou for this very informative post, looking forward to tomorrows update re the Linn streamers

Cheers

Bob
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by matpip
Norman,
thanks a lot for your very useful posts, I really enjoyed them!
Are you also planning to test some streamers like Sonos or Squeezebox, I'm very interested in knowing how do they perform compared to CD5X as transport to the DAC.
Thanks in advance
Posted on: 21 December 2009 by Joe Bibb
Norman,

Thanks for your second batch of observations, very interesting.

Joe
Posted on: 21 December 2009 by gone
Thanks for your methodical reviews Norman - interesting stuff!

quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
<snip>...For some reason best known to Naim the CDX2/2 has a BNC output whilst the HDX has an RCA (The BNC does sound better if the option is there by the way) it was possible to connect both the CDX2/2 using our DC1 BNC – BNC whilst at the same time using the RCA to BNC version to connect the HDX helpfully there are two BNC inputs on the new DAC....<snip>


I believe the current production HDX now has a BNC output? Or at least that's what i saw recently. Not sure why they didn't put it there in the first place. Is it possible to by a DC1 in RCA-BNC version (thinking ahead)?
Posted on: 21 December 2009 by Richard Dane
Yes, the DC1 comes in all variants of RCA and BNC connection.
Posted on: 21 December 2009 by Jonn
quote:
Originally posted by Nero:
Thanks for your methodical reviews Norman - interesting stuff!

quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
<snip>...For some reason best known to Naim the CDX2/2 has a BNC output whilst the HDX has an RCA (The BNC does sound better if the option is there by the way) it was possible to connect both the CDX2/2 using our DC1 BNC – BNC whilst at the same time using the RCA to BNC version to connect the HDX helpfully there are two BNC inputs on the new DAC....<snip>


I believe the current production HDX now has a BNC output? Or at least that's what i saw recently. Not sure why they didn't put it there in the first place. Is it possible to by a DC1 in RCA-BNC version (thinking ahead)?


Hi Nero,
Yes I ordered a RCA-BNC DC1 (£225) to go with the DAC for my HDX. BTW you asked if the Raising Sand album I used to demo the HDX/DAC in an earlier post was the CD or 24bit version - it was the CD version ripped to the HDX hard-drive.
ATB
Jon
Posted on: 22 December 2009 by T38.45
Hi Norman,

any news on the DAC field? We're waiting for your reports like christmas eve:-)
Many thanks
Ralf
Posted on: 22 December 2009 by Milo Tweenie
Deafening silence on the Linn DS comparisons …
Posted on: 22 December 2009 by u5227470736789454
quote:
Originally posted by Milo Tweenie:
Deafening silence on the Linn DS comparisons …



Give him a chance, Norman has a business to run and has been kind enough to take time out make the comparisons and to post his findings so far, he has said he will post the Linn comparisons and I am sure he will do so when he gets a moment.

If you are in a rush, you could always try your local dealer and go and listen for yourself

Barrie
Posted on: 22 December 2009 by tonym
Perhaps Norman hasn't had time to do this yet?
Posted on: 22 December 2009 by Milo Tweenie
quote:
Originally posted by baz100:
quote:
Originally posted by Milo Tweenie:
Deafening silence on the Linn DS comparisons …



Give him a chance, Norman has a business to run and has been kind enough to take time out make the comparisons and to post his findings so far, he has said he will post the Linn comparisons and I am sure he will do so when he gets a moment.

If you are in a rush, you could always try your local dealer and go and listen for yourself

Barrie


Steady on guys; this was a tongue in cheek remark. Maybe the Linn DS comes out in front?
Posted on: 22 December 2009 by Cymbiosis
quote:
Originally posted by Milo Tweenie:
quote:
Originally posted by baz100:
quote:
Originally posted by Milo Tweenie:
Deafening silence on the Linn DS comparisons …



Give him a chance, Norman has a business to run and has been kind enough to take time out make the comparisons and to post his findings so far, he has said he will post the Linn comparisons and I am sure he will do so when he gets a moment.

If you are in a rush, you could always try your local dealer and go and listen for yourself

Barrie


Steady on guys; this was a tongue in cheek remark. Maybe the Linn DS comes out in front?


LOL! Yes Milo could/should!

IMHO Baz and Tony are spot on, with most people on holiday, this is a busy time for dealers, hence my lack of time to post recently.

Plus, there's even more of interest about to walk through dealers doors at this festive time..............Phil and I haven't had chance to do the paper work yet, but Wayne's hopping round a bit and has just said that a pair of Ovator S660's are due to be delivered this morning too!!!! Eek

Anyway, if we get time, I'll see if Phil can post his thoughts between the DAC and DS players as he was involved in several demos yesterday. All I know is that confirmed sales over the last couple of weeks since the DAC arrived are pretty much even in A/B dems!

IMHO this is really interesting if there is no clear winner and pretty much demands that you guys check things out for yourselves.

Must dash.

Peter
Posted on: 22 December 2009 by Paul Stephenson
Steady on guys;this was a tongue in cheek remark. Maybe the Linn DS comes out in front?

You do need to go and listen, the retailers have to protect themselves and here is not the place for this standing on the fence without looking soppy.
As for the ds in front well no standing on fences here as you can imagine... not in our book. Just like the good ole daysSmile
The really good news on all fronts is the interest this creates for us all, squeezing the last drop of music out is what its all about.