Naim DAC – a dealers initial perpective

Posted by: Rodborough on 20 December 2009

Having now had the new Naim DAC for almost two weeks I thought I would share some initial thoughts on something that is for me at least still very much a work in progress, it is a shame that the release has been delayed causing it’s appearance at one of the busiest times for dealers even in normal circumstances and this combined with the immanent increase in VAT to 17.5% next month has exacerbated this situation somewhat.

After allowing a few hours for the new DAC to acclimatise, always a danger of condensation when new equipment arrives in this extremely cold weather, but this gave me time to assemble all the necessary paraphernalia, just as well we had the Naim DC1 in all three versions RCA – RCA, RCA – BNC & BNC – BNC, also to hand was the CD5XS (BNC digital out), CDX2/2 (BNC digital out), HDX (RCA digital out), Linn Sneaky & Majik DS, Apple iPod, iPhone & MacBook, some Naim Powerline’s & HiLine’s and XPS2 & CD555PS.

It seemed a good idea to start off with the CD5XS, into the DAC using the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC), it has to be said that the sound was pretty aggressive, not unlike the old CDX on acid, common with brand new Naim that is neither burnt in, run in or warmed up, but after only a few minutes it begun to improve/calm down but I could not resist a quick comparison between CD5XS & CDX2/2 and was not totally surprised that there was not much between them at this point, I thought perhaps at the very least an overnight with music running through it might provide a better opportunity to make some more meaningful comparisons.

The next day the Naim DAC was transformed but I decided to begin with a straight comparison of CD5XS versus CDX2/2, using standard mains cables & interconnects, these are after all the best 5 series and CDX variants to date and both performed extremely well through our reference system with the CDX2/2 being the clear winner, although on a personal note I do find that the CDX2/2 can tilt a little in the direction of a slightly forward presentation to achieve higher levels of detail.

Via the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC) the new DAC was added to the CD5XS the improvement was breathtaking it brought out all of the detail whilst preserving the CD5XS units very musical sound and was a clear winner over the CDX2/2, to be fair to the CDX2/2 it does cost a little more CD5XS/DAC £3700.00, CDX2/2 £3,250.00 (VAT @ 15%), but in my view the best £450.00 extra it would be possible to invest, given the many other benefits the DAC is going to bring to future system development.

The next obvious step was to connect the DAC to the CDX2/2 once again a breathtaking improvement and slightly better than the CD5XS/DAC, in this configuration the CDX2/2 with DAC comes out at £5,200.00, £1,500.00 more than the CD5XS, not quite enough to add an XPS2 but certainly enough to add a HiLine and a Powerline to the DAC bringing the CD5XS/DAC/PowerLine/HiLine combination to £4,650.00 against the CDX2/2/DAC at £5,200.00 and now the CD5XS was the clear winner, and of course these benefits (adding HiLine & PowerLine) are shared by any other source components now running through the DAC.

Naturally the next step was to connect the CDX2/2 to the now slightly upgraded DAC and once again the CDX2/2 stamped its authority as the slightly superior combination, adding the PowerLine & HiLine to the DAC raisers the price stakes of this combination to £6,150.00 so my next experiment was to remove the PowerLine & HiLine and add an XPS2 to the CD5XS/DAC combination this being just £400.00 more at £6,550.00 and once again the CD5XS/DAC/XPS2 combination was the clear winner over the CDX2/2/DAC/Powerline/HiLine combination at £6,150.00 and a trend was beginning to emerge. Whilst in standalone operation the CDX2/2 is a superior CD player to the CD5XS the introduction into the mix of the Naim DAC has a levelling affect even though the CDX2/2 always comes out slightly ahead, that £1,500.00 price advantage that the CD5XS has though, if carefully invested in upgrades to the DAC, brings about advantages not only to the replay of CDs but of course to any other source components utilising the Naim DAC, I concluded my experiments through the following combinations:

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2 (£8,050.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£7,500.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£9,000.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£8,945.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£10,445.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy, HiLine (£9,500.00)

Up until this point the CD5XS combinations were often less expensive and yet superior, of course usually the XPS2 & CD555PS power supplies in former pre DAC days were upgrades available only to the CDX variants and would place them into a much higher league than any of the 5 series CD players adding the DAC however now makes these upgrades available to the CD5XS as well.

Having now taken the CD5XS to its current highest level of potential upgrades all that was now left to do was to connect the CDX2/2 to the fully upgraded DAC and the edge that the CDX2/2 had enjoyed throughout made it the best possible combination coming in at £11,000.00 over the CD5XS at £9,500.00.

I have gone back to this when time has permitted over the past couple of weeks and although the DAC continues to improve it has no affect upon the above results.

A reshuffle of the demonstrations rooms here has now taken the DAC off the reference system and into our mid to high-end room so that work could continue by introducing the NaimUnity, HDX/DAC, Linn DS/DAC, even iPod & MacBook/DAC into the equation and I will write more on that later in the thread.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 15 February 2010 by luxen2
Not my experience at all.

I heard the bare CDx2/2 into the SN and then the CD5XS-DAC-combo...
Much more to my liking...

So, it is again a question of taste!
Posted on: 16 February 2010 by IWC Doppel
Any views on synergy between DAC's transports and power supplies. Seems there is no obvious winning combinations or steps to upgrade ?
Posted on: 26 February 2010 by Frank Abela
Last week I compared the CD5XS/DAC combination to the bare CDX2.2. I spent a lot of time with this into a 282/hicap/250/kudos C2 system using stock cables. I used both the Naim DC-1 and a brand new un-run-in Chord Digital Signature between the combo.

To be honest I swung one way then another and never really got to grips with it but the combo never seemed as engaging as the CDX2.2. Still I wasn't really sure and even asked the wife to come in and have a listen. She declared that the CDX2 was the more engaging but that it wasn't by a long shot and that if I thought I couold live with the lower involvement of the combo that this could then be a good compromise pending future digital sources to put through the DAC (as well as my PS3).

So still mulling it over, but not as clear cut as I'd hoped and not the same as Norman's experience, which probably means I'm deaf...
Posted on: 26 February 2010 by Edouard
quote:
the combo never seemed as engaging as the CDX2.2. Still I wasn't really sure and even asked the wife to come in and have a listen. She declared that the CDX2 was the more engaging but that it wasn't by a long shot

I guess it depends on what you're looking for, as Norman expressed clearly that he was not too keen on the forward presentation of the CDX2-2.
Norman also said that with the Dac, you get the Dac sound, and a modified older CDX2 with the digital output connected to the Dac won't have the CDX2 sound anymore...
...all this means that some will prefer the CD5XS/Dac combo and others may prefer the CDX2-2/CDX2 Smile

Regards,
Edouard
Posted on: 26 February 2010 by luxen2
quote:
Norman also said that with the Dac, you get the Dac sound, and a modified older CDX2 with the digital output connected to the Dac won't have the CDX2 sound anymore...


Dear Edouard,
please do not take offense, je t´en prie!

But is this not "too simple"?

I heard both the CDX2.2 and the CD5XS on the DAC and the sound was very much different.

IMHO, the DAC "enhances" the already fabulous qualities of each source...
Posted on: 26 February 2010 by crackie
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Last week I compared the CD5XS/DAC combination to the bare CDX2.2. I spent a lot of time with this into a 282/hicap/250/kudos C2 system using stock cables. I used both the Naim DC-1 and a brand new un-run-in Chord Digital Signature between the combo.

To be honest I swung one way then another and never really got to grips with it but the combo never seemed as engaging as the CDX2.2. Still I wasn't really sure and even asked the wife to come in and have a listen. She declared that the CDX2 was the more engaging but that it wasn't by a long shot and that if I thought I couold live with the lower involvement of the combo that this could then be a good compromise pending future digital sources to put through the DAC (as well as my PS3).

So still mulling it over, but not as clear cut as I'd hoped and not the same as Norman's experience, which probably means I'm deaf...


Naim have really delivered a superb player in the CDX2.2 , with a 555PS, it just rocks my world - big time.

People that never got to grips with the original CDX2 really need to hear this one.
Posted on: 26 February 2010 by Edouard
quote:
But is this not "too simple"?

I heard both the CDX2.2 and the CD5XS on the DAC and the sound was very much different.

That was exactly my point Luxen Winker

Regards,
Edouard
Posted on: 27 February 2010 by Lefty
quote:
Originally posted by crackie:
People that never got to grips with the original CDX2 really need to hear this one.


Interesting. How would you describe the sonic differences?

Lefty
Posted on: 27 February 2010 by crackie
Lefty, for me this new CDX2 has much more detail / resolution. It also feels more "real" to listen to.

This player is simply just more fun to listen to from start to finish. For me, the old one is a touch boring (in comparison to this player).

Look, I am not saying this CDX2 version leaves the earlier one in the dust.

It just suites my tastes & needs better.

IMHO this is a real sleeper hit in the NAIM CDP line up.
Posted on: 27 February 2010 by luxen2
quote:
Originally posted by Edouard:
quote:
But is this not "too simple"?

I heard both the CDX2.2 and the CD5XS on the DAC and the sound was very much different.

That was exactly my point Luxen Winker

Regards,
Edouard


Ok, I see...but my point was that IMHO the CDPs are still "shining through the DAC", each in his own way...
To me it was not that the DAC now takes the "leading role"...

Sorry if I misunderstood you, dear Edouard.
Winker
Posted on: 27 February 2010 by Lefty
Thanks for the feedback Crackie.

I was hoping the difference would be that the new CDX2.2 would be closer to the CDS3 in terms of sonic signature than the CDX2. I've always found the CDX range of players to be strident and shouty (but very fast and exciting). The CDS3 on the other hand is nigh on faultless IMO and has a much smoother and more analogue sound than the old CDX2. If the new CDX2.2 were a 'mini CDS3', then I would seriously consider one.

I'm also interested to hear if the Naim DAC is closer to a CDX2 or CDS3 in terms of sonic signature. i.e, is it fast, punchy and a little too insistent (CDX2) or is it altogether more fluid, organic and beguiling (CDS3)?

Lefty
Posted on: 27 February 2010 by crackie
Ah, right. No mini CDS3 with this one, smoother more fluid as a CDS3 it is not.

Punchier,more attack, more detail it most certainly has (than the old CDX2).
Posted on: 27 February 2010 by SteveJansen
Were you watching a small Jedi master recently?

Thanks for the great description. I prefer the CDS3 sonics to the CDX, but I can understand why the speed and attack of the CDX is preferable for some.
Posted on: 27 February 2010 by SteveJansen
Getting back to the DAC, I'm hoping that Naim will release a new model down the track with a firewire input. I've respected Naim for sticking to din's & bnc's when most of the world went to rca, as the best sound quality was their aim. But, with audio moving rapidly away from CD, I'd like to be able to use the best connection my macbook pro can provide. It's probably already been covered before, so I'll just add it to my wishlist.

I'm my crazy dream, my hi fi would be so user friendly that my wife would be able to play music without having to ring me up to ask why there is no sound coming from the speakers. CD may not have the convenience of all your music in one place, but compared to getting the best out of both vinyl & computer audio, it's gloriously plug & play. No washing records, no worrying about compatibility issues with the endless formats & protocols...

In my quest to get the best out of hi-res audio, I'd like to have a DAC-less HDX with SSD, and the GUI would be so simple that my Mum could figure it out. It would also cost more in keeping with a Unity, so the gap between macbook & HDX wasn't the chasm it is.

Love the Unity stuff by the way - priced so that people like myself could afford it, and cleverly thought through. Maybe a Unity XS one day?
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by Julian H
Whenever I hear the N-DAC [BBQ last year and yesterday at the show] I hear a sort of artificial digital over processed effect/artifact/break up. Just does not sound right to me, with or without external PS. I guess if no one else hears this, it MUST just be me. Frown Sorry if my terminology is not accurate, I am not really up on all this digital stuff.

Whenever I heard the demo yesterday "with vs without" DAC, I definetely preferred without. In fact, that CDX2/2 202/Hi/Napsc/200 Allaes that Mark was demoing was a VERY nice little system.
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by Edouard
Looks like I heard the same thing as Julian after spending a whole day with the Naim Dac with Wave files on USB, we also had a MacBook.
System was 552/300/Amati Anniversario...
...The 555PS powering the Dac made the sound more dynamic, with more impact on the bass, but it was like a hammer bass, kind of tiring, over all it sounded more digital and a little artificial...
Listening to the CDS3/555PS right after was immediately a revelation as to what the replay should be, not only you hear things that were more or less hidden before, but the music flows with such a naturalness, it just leaves you speachless, not only the bass have a tremendous impact but the bass is so beautiful and natural...and breathtaking, not to mention the beautiful coherency, the rightness, the music makes a lot more sense, you just don't question the replay, you just have a BIG grin on your face and get deeply involve in the music Big Grin
...and we were 7 people feeling the exact same thing...
The DAC is definitely impressive, just don't listen to the CDS3/555PS right after because it's a whole different world in term of music Winker

Regards,
Edouard
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by Lefty
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Edouard - your description of the CDS3 sound exactly mirrors my experience of it. For me, it's still the ultimate digital source.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the DAC / computer audio thing (my HDD source is a Linn Akurate DS), but they have to measure up in the sonic stakes just like any other component.

I was really excited by the entusiasm for the Lavry / Benchmark and went so far as to buy noth to try in my system. However, to my ears, they were (comprehensively) bettered by a humble Naim CD3.5/HiCap. That's not to say there aren't DACs out there which are capable of delivering true musical satisfaction. I currently use an old AVI S2000MD DAC in my second system and it sounds sublime.

My digital holy grail would be a DAC which has the sonic signature of the CDS3/XPS2 - drooooooooool Big Grin

Lefty
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by BigH47
Before seeing this or speaking to Julian, I said after the dem of the Active S-600s, that when the DAC was in circuit it sounded like "tape hiss", CD only no "hiss". It's the first time I've been at the front of the dems, but I've always had a sense, at other dems, of un-rightness when the DAC is being used.
I'm sorry to speak against this "perfect item", I'll stand by to be stoned.
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by gary yeowell
quote:
Whenever I hear the N-DAC [BBQ last year and yesterday at the show] I hear a sort of artificial digital over processed effect/artifact/break up. Just does not sound right to me, with or without external PS. I guess if no one else hears this, it MUST just be me.


You are not alone Julian. When i reported on my DAC findings back in early January i mentioned this also. The DAC seems to me to fall over itself trying to give masses of midband detail but sounds to my ears quite digital and processed.

By comparison, in the demo my CDS3/XPS2 was a breath of fresh air, sounding like the best of a good T/Table, natural, flowing and altogether musically coherent. At the time i did not want to say too much on the forum and suggested people go listen for themselves (which they still should) but my CDS3/XPS2 sounded MUCH better than the CDX2.2/DAC/XPS2.

Gary.
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by Julian H
quote:
Originally posted by gary yeowell:
quote:
Whenever I hear the N-DAC [BBQ last year and yesterday at the show] I hear a sort of artificial digital over processed effect/artifact/break up. Just does not sound right to me, with or without external PS. I guess if no one else hears this, it MUST just be me.


You are not alone Julian. When i reported on my DAC findings back in early January i mentioned this also. The DAC seems to me to fall over itself trying to give masses of midband detail but sounds to my ears quite digital and processed.

By comparison, in the demo my CDS3/XPS2 was a breath of fresh air, sounding like the best of a good T/Table, natural, flowing and altogether musically coherent. At the time i did not want to say too much on the forum and suggested people go listen for themselves (which they still should) but my CDS3/XPS2 sounded MUCH better than the CDX2.2/DAC/XPS2.

Gary.


Thanks Howard and Gary. If more than just me hears it, why doesn't everbody hear it, including Naim? It was perfectly audible, even on the lowly XS system yesterday.
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by John R.
Regarding the Naim DAC oppinions seem to be very different: I prefer my CDX2-2/DC1/DAC way much over my bare CDX2-2 and I can not hear any hiss. I think that the timing of the DAC is a lot better and that the tonality is more natural with voices, violins and pianos. Maybe it is due to the DAC's new digital filter with no pre ringing.
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by Exiled Highlander
John R

I'm with you on this one. I demo'd mine yesterday in London and walked out of the dealers with it under my arm.

2 hours later it was safely installed in my system and is doing sterling duty off my MacBook. Music has been pouring forth almost non-stop since. I have no interest in running it as an add on to a CDP so I will sell my CDS2 to free up the XPS for use on the DAC.

Sorry it took so long to type this but I had to stop to listen to Alison Moorer singing Steal The Sun from her 2003 CD Show. Wonderful.

Cheers

Jim
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by Exiled Highlander
Allen
quote:
Even my NBL's with the DAC, will glaringly show any recording that is not up to scratch, or indeed, mixed for the ipod generation, to have a digital edge.
I am not getting that at all....I have found that it helps on everything but there again I'm only using it on my small system here in the flat at the moment and it's not as revealing as yours.

Cheers

Jim
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by gary yeowell
quote:
I reckon what we are hearing is a range of 'digital' audio products that are designed by Naim to produce a perfect balance with these new speakers


When i had my demo of the DAC it was into a 552/500/Ovators system and the CDS3/XPS2 was way more natural, much less in your face and digital sounding, altogether more composed and real than the CDX2.2/DAC/XPS2.
I wanted to love the DAC especially as i also owned a CD5XS and could have gone down that route but came away LOVING the CDS3 more than ever.

Gary.
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by Julian H
quote:
My initial take on this....

Naim have designed (yet again) a ground breaking loudspeaker design with the Ovator range.

I reckon what we are hearing is a range of 'digital' audio products that are designed by Naim to produce a perfect balance with these new speakers. I am afraid what some people are hearing, including myself, is a slight edginess (on some music, and this comes down, as much as anything, to the original recording quality) on our older amps and more particularly loudspeakers. Even my NBL's with the DAC, will glaringly show any recording that is not up to scratch, or indeed, mixed for the ipod generation, to have a digital edge. Get a good recording and the DAC is sublime. The 'analogue-ness' of the CDP's may have smoothed some of this 'digital edge' out, intentionally so. But looking forward to the new 'sources' the sweetness of the BMR units in the Ovator range deals with this edginess perfectly. All IMHO, of course


I cannot agree with you.

The problem I hear is clearly audible with everything played through all the N-DAC systems demonstrated that I have ever heard even with the "ultra special hi res files" used for part of some demos.

If what I am hearing is the limitation of the recorded files of every piece of music played including the highest res demo files, then IMO the product is fatally flawed because, to me it has made the music virtually unlistenable as "hi-fidelity".