Naim DAC – a dealers initial perpective

Posted by: Rodborough on 20 December 2009

Having now had the new Naim DAC for almost two weeks I thought I would share some initial thoughts on something that is for me at least still very much a work in progress, it is a shame that the release has been delayed causing it’s appearance at one of the busiest times for dealers even in normal circumstances and this combined with the immanent increase in VAT to 17.5% next month has exacerbated this situation somewhat.

After allowing a few hours for the new DAC to acclimatise, always a danger of condensation when new equipment arrives in this extremely cold weather, but this gave me time to assemble all the necessary paraphernalia, just as well we had the Naim DC1 in all three versions RCA – RCA, RCA – BNC & BNC – BNC, also to hand was the CD5XS (BNC digital out), CDX2/2 (BNC digital out), HDX (RCA digital out), Linn Sneaky & Majik DS, Apple iPod, iPhone & MacBook, some Naim Powerline’s & HiLine’s and XPS2 & CD555PS.

It seemed a good idea to start off with the CD5XS, into the DAC using the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC), it has to be said that the sound was pretty aggressive, not unlike the old CDX on acid, common with brand new Naim that is neither burnt in, run in or warmed up, but after only a few minutes it begun to improve/calm down but I could not resist a quick comparison between CD5XS & CDX2/2 and was not totally surprised that there was not much between them at this point, I thought perhaps at the very least an overnight with music running through it might provide a better opportunity to make some more meaningful comparisons.

The next day the Naim DAC was transformed but I decided to begin with a straight comparison of CD5XS versus CDX2/2, using standard mains cables & interconnects, these are after all the best 5 series and CDX variants to date and both performed extremely well through our reference system with the CDX2/2 being the clear winner, although on a personal note I do find that the CDX2/2 can tilt a little in the direction of a slightly forward presentation to achieve higher levels of detail.

Via the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC) the new DAC was added to the CD5XS the improvement was breathtaking it brought out all of the detail whilst preserving the CD5XS units very musical sound and was a clear winner over the CDX2/2, to be fair to the CDX2/2 it does cost a little more CD5XS/DAC £3700.00, CDX2/2 £3,250.00 (VAT @ 15%), but in my view the best £450.00 extra it would be possible to invest, given the many other benefits the DAC is going to bring to future system development.

The next obvious step was to connect the DAC to the CDX2/2 once again a breathtaking improvement and slightly better than the CD5XS/DAC, in this configuration the CDX2/2 with DAC comes out at £5,200.00, £1,500.00 more than the CD5XS, not quite enough to add an XPS2 but certainly enough to add a HiLine and a Powerline to the DAC bringing the CD5XS/DAC/PowerLine/HiLine combination to £4,650.00 against the CDX2/2/DAC at £5,200.00 and now the CD5XS was the clear winner, and of course these benefits (adding HiLine & PowerLine) are shared by any other source components now running through the DAC.

Naturally the next step was to connect the CDX2/2 to the now slightly upgraded DAC and once again the CDX2/2 stamped its authority as the slightly superior combination, adding the PowerLine & HiLine to the DAC raisers the price stakes of this combination to £6,150.00 so my next experiment was to remove the PowerLine & HiLine and add an XPS2 to the CD5XS/DAC combination this being just £400.00 more at £6,550.00 and once again the CD5XS/DAC/XPS2 combination was the clear winner over the CDX2/2/DAC/Powerline/HiLine combination at £6,150.00 and a trend was beginning to emerge. Whilst in standalone operation the CDX2/2 is a superior CD player to the CD5XS the introduction into the mix of the Naim DAC has a levelling affect even though the CDX2/2 always comes out slightly ahead, that £1,500.00 price advantage that the CD5XS has though, if carefully invested in upgrades to the DAC, brings about advantages not only to the replay of CDs but of course to any other source components utilising the Naim DAC, I concluded my experiments through the following combinations:

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2 (£8,050.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£7,500.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£9,000.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£8,945.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£10,445.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy, HiLine (£9,500.00)

Up until this point the CD5XS combinations were often less expensive and yet superior, of course usually the XPS2 & CD555PS power supplies in former pre DAC days were upgrades available only to the CDX variants and would place them into a much higher league than any of the 5 series CD players adding the DAC however now makes these upgrades available to the CD5XS as well.

Having now taken the CD5XS to its current highest level of potential upgrades all that was now left to do was to connect the CDX2/2 to the fully upgraded DAC and the edge that the CDX2/2 had enjoyed throughout made it the best possible combination coming in at £11,000.00 over the CD5XS at £9,500.00.

I have gone back to this when time has permitted over the past couple of weeks and although the DAC continues to improve it has no affect upon the above results.

A reshuffle of the demonstrations rooms here has now taken the DAC off the reference system and into our mid to high-end room so that work could continue by introducing the NaimUnity, HDX/DAC, Linn DS/DAC, even iPod & MacBook/DAC into the equation and I will write more on that later in the thread.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 27 December 2009 by Edouard
quote:
Richard, I think (just a guess really) that Edouard would like to know why Naim didn't provide TWO routes within the Unity - one via the internal DAC to an analogue output and the other, to by-pass the DAC, direct to a digital output.
Edouard?
Cheers, Don

You are spot on Don Winker
quote:

My point of view on this is that the Unity was designed to be a complete one-box device and this is also the way it has been marketed.
So if you buy a Unity then that's all you need, and if you want more you should have bought seperates.

Well Supernait, NaitXS, HDX and Unity are all one box solutions....
but what I see is people adding :
- FC, HC or SC, 200, 250, and sometimes 300 to the Supernait
- FC, HC, 200 to the NaitXS
- 140, 180, 200 or 250 to the Unity....I even had the demo at friends...

...Actually they are all upgradable one box solutions Winker

Hence why not the Naim Dac? Does it really make sense not to be able to upgrade the replay of the Unity with the Naim DAC went it is doable with a cheapo Ipod??

Even in the case of the HDX, you can say that one of the devices "unified" within the HDX is... a DAC!
...none the less the DAC is the best upgrade for the HDX Smile
...and IMO, the DAC could very well be the best upgrade for the Unity as well Winker

Regards,
Edouard
Posted on: 27 December 2009 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by Edouard:
quote:

My point of view on this is that the Unity was designed to be a complete one-box device and this is also the way it has been marketed.
So if you buy a Unity then that's all you need, and if you want more you should have bought seperates.

Well Supernait, NaitXS, HDX and Unity are all one box solutions....
but what I see is people adding :
- FC, HC or SC, 200, 250, and sometimes 300 to the Supernait
- FC, HC, 200 to the NaitXS
- 140, 180, 200 or 250 to the Unity....I even had the demo at friends...

...Actually they are all upgradable one box solutions Winker

...

Regards,
Edouard


Don't agree with you on this at all.
SuperNait, NaitXS are not one-box solutions, they are just integrated amplifiers, not one-box-solutions at all.
I would like to hear how much music you can get out off a NaitXS and a set of speakers and no added source.

The HDX is a different 'cookie', but then I believe there is a slight price difference between an HDX and a Unity, that could account for some extra possibilities? Winker

-
aleg
Posted on: 27 December 2009 by Edouard
quote:
The HDX is a different 'cookie', but then I believe there is a slight price difference between an HDX and a Unity, that could account for some extra possibilities?


Hi Aleg,

I understand your point, nevertheless you can upgrade the Unity with a separate and more powerful amp, hence it's an upgradable one box solution, and I believe that upgrading the Unity DAC with the dedicated Naim DAC will bring in most cases, more in term of music than upgrading the amp.
In their own way, Iphone and Ipods (they are Apple products of course and not Naim) are one box solutions as well, and they can benefit from the Naim DAC, why not the Unity, there you have definitely a slight price difference I think Winker

Regards,
Edouard
Posted on: 27 December 2009 by Richard Dane
I think that for 99% of the Uniti's target customers, there would be no need for a digital output. After all, the DAC in the Uniti is good enough already. So why add to the cost (for there would be added cost in development of a properly engineered digital output, if only minor in material terms) by putting in a feature that would be used by hardly any of the Uniti's customers?
Posted on: 27 December 2009 by Roy T
Only upgrade required is a power Line.
Flog them one, job done.
Posted on: 27 December 2009 by Edouard
quote:
a feature that would be used by hardly any of the Uniti's customers?

Richard, you are definitely right if the DAC upgrade is not dramatic, but how about if it was Smile

A bientôt,
Edouard
Posted on: 27 December 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:
I think that for 99% of the Uniti's target customers, there would be no need for a digital output. After all, the DAC in the Uniti is good enough already.

quote:
So why add to the cost (for there would be added cost in development of a properly engineered digital output, if only minor in material terms)

Given (iffy sort of word)that Naim have now developed a good digital output for the cdx5 (?) and the cdx2.2 and as a retrofit to the cdx2, and "given" that the R&D costs have already been amortised over the predicted production runs of those three items (and probably the HDX and one or two other items?), it would now only cost a few peanuts to provide high-quality digital outputs to things like the Uniti (minor in material terms)

Of course, if (another iffy word) the DAC in the Uniti really is as good as the new DAC (and the next geneartaion Super-DAC), well, then I concede there really wouldn't be much point.

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 27 December 2009 by Amer
Hi, these are really great posts. Thanks to Rodborough for starting them off so well.

On the Uniti front I would support Don Aktinson in urging a digital output for the uniti just for this purpose. There are going to be loads of buyers of a Uniti, that won't have experienced such good quality out of one box before. They may might well feel the level of improvement that just one extra box (DAC) can provided, would be tempted.
I have the uniti as a second system, it sounds good enough for me to start having doubts about my 4 box main system (102,nasc and Hi-cap power supplies and 250.2). If I could get the sorts of improvements Rodborough reports with just one more box, I would!
Regards Amer
Posted on: 28 December 2009 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by Edouard:
quote:
a feature that would be used by hardly any of the Uniti's customers?

Richard, you are definitely right if the DAC upgrade is not dramatic, but how about if it was Smile

A bientôt,
Edouard


Edouard, I think you missed Richard's point. He's not saying that the addition of the DAC to the Uniti wouldn't be a significant improvement.

However, given the price point of the Uniti and the custmoer which would likely purchase this product, he's doubting that many of them would choose to add the DAC due to the added cost. Furthermore the addition of the Dig out woulkd also increase the cost of the Uniti which would potentially drive sales away from those same individuals.
Posted on: 29 December 2009 by DanBa
quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
iPod’s et-al do not really do it for me, although I do like them for background music when reading or dining with friends as one is not drawn into the music which causes me to read the same paragraph over and over again, but for sure this does make the iPod produce the best sound I have ever heard from one but still no cigar from this old dinosaur.

Next up was the Apple MacBook, this was connected to the DAC, TOSlink to optical digital input, and this was a major step up from the iPod & iPhone, I actually had to pinch myself to realise that this sound quality was coming from a Laptop computer

What kind of iPod files do you use?

Using the same 16/44.1 lossless files, if the SQ of the MacBook via S/PDIF optical connection is much better than the SQ of the iPod via USB interface than the jitter reduction mecanism / reclocking is not efficient.
Posted on: 29 December 2009 by John R.
@ DanBa: Do not just blame it on jitter. I guess it might be the software player on the MacBook that sounds better compared to the one used on the iPod. With different software players for PCs I heard huge differences in the past always playing the very same WAV file. Some software players sounded rather like a poor mp3 and others really, really good. Computer based audio is sometimes mysterious.
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by DanBa
Different PC software players can easily extract the same 0s and the 1s from the PCM WAV file, and send the same 0s and the 1s (i.e. the data information) to the Naim DAC.

But different PC software players should manage to transmit the audio bitstream (i.e. data information and timing information) in different ways, hence different levels of jitter.
Different PC software players have more or less transmission buffers and drive the SPDIF hardware / USB hardware (clock …) using their own software driver or the existing driver on the PC.

Concerning lossless file iPod playback, all related software and hardware are from Apple, and the resulting audio bitstreams from different iPod should have the same level of jitter.
And these audio bitstreams are well known as bit-perfect:

“Leave it to Wadia Digital to create a product that capitalizes on the iPod’s strengths while completely eliminating the sonic shortcomings that have relegated it to ancillary listening environments. That product is the 170 iTransport, the first Apple-sanctioned dock to tap into the iPod’s digital bitstream and present that bitstream to an outboard digital-to-analog converter of your choice. The iTransport allows you, for the first time, to bring the iPod’s functionality to a high-end system with no excuses—for just $379.

The 170 iTransport looks like a traditional Wadia product in miniature, all the way down to its pointed feet. The flat top surface holds the docking connector, which accepts all iPod models courtesy of a supplied variety of dock inserts. The rear panel presents the iPod’s digital output in S/PDIF format on an RCA jack. You simply connect this output to any outboard D/A converter and the iPod’s sound quality is now determined by the quality of that D/A converter.”
http://www.avguide.com/review/...itransport-ipod-dock
Posted on: 02 January 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Norman

Thank you for the write up. Why stop with the Sneaky and Majik - you know what we want

Respectfully
Gregg


Hi Gregg

My focus here is upon the new Naim DAC and devices that could be connected to it, this limits me to just two Naim CD Players (CD5 XS & CDX2/2) and of the extensive range of Linn DS units leaving aside the new Majik DS-i there are only two of these with the appropriate output (Sneaky & Majik DS).

I do have a couple of very interesting dems booked though, one using the Naim DVD5 and another using the Linn CD12 as sources for the new Naim DAC.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Hi Norman

Just out of interest, what pre-power conbo did you use when testing the LINN DS products with the DAC?

Regards

Gordon


Hi Gordon

We keep the full range of Naim equipment on demonstration here so during the tests equipment was as varied as SuperNait to 552/500, however to answer your question specifically I had pretty much settled down in one of our mid price level dem rooms by the time I got around to the DS units and was happy using a NAC-282/NA-PSC, Hicap2 and NAP-300/300PS the system has been since the 22nd December, running in the Ovator S-600 loudspeakers.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by kent
Hi Norman,

Is the 282/HC sufficient for the 300? I have a 282/HC coming and need a partnering amp.
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Norman

Thank you again for this terrific post.

I have heard the CD5xs and the HDX with 555PS/HiLine/Powerline. Would you place the CD2/2 closer to the CD5xs or to the HDX in this configuration?

Hi Bob

The differences between the CD5XS & CDX2/2 were quite marginal with only a slight edge in the CDX2/2 favour, whilst the HDX was completely transformed, so for me at least I would put the CDX2/2 closer to the CD5XS rather than the HDX

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Bob
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
OK but why Naim didn't provide a digital output to the Unity, why can the DAC be connected to the 5XS, Ipod, Itouch, Iphone, and not to the Unity? Is there a logic or technical issues for not offering a digital output to the Unity?

Regards,
Edouard


Hi Edouard

Good news is that whilst the NaimUnity does not have the necessary digital output to feed the new Naim DAC the new Naim UnitiQute does, can’t wait to get my hands on this and this might be the best solution for those wishing to dip their toe into the digital streaming pool, priced midway between Linn’s Sneaky & Majik DS units, but for many perhaps the comfort wrought by that glowing Naim Logo

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Hi Norman,

Is the 282/HC sufficient for the 300? I have a 282/HC coming and need a partnering amp.


Hi Kent

The 282/HC2/300 was just the combination to hand in this particular dem room here, the 552/552PS are on the reference system in another room as indeed is the 252/SC2.

If you love the presentation of the 282/HC2 combination, and many do, you will love what a 300 does on the end of it.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by james n
Kent - you'll enjoy the 300 on the end of the 282. If you can get your hands on a Supercap then even better.

James
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Edouard
quote:
whilst the NaimUnity does not have the necessary digital output to feed the new Naim DAC the new Naim UnitiQute does

Bonsoir Norman,

Thank you very much for the information, it's indeed a good news, and who knows, the Unity may get a digital output too in the future, as there is no reason for the NaimUnity to be less loaded than the new UnitiQute Smile
I wonder if the NaimUnity and the UnitiQute have the same quality DAC...

Kind Regards,
Edouard
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
Good news is that whilst the NaimUnity does not have the necessary digital output to feed the new Naim DAC the new Naim UnitiQute does

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Now that makes the UnitiQute a lot more interesting - ideally I'd like it sans power amps, but it does mean I could use on the main system as streamer and in the office as a standalone player.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Frank Abela
Fascinating thread - thanks very much to Phil and Norman for the information. I am VERY interested in hearing (some of) the combinations in our shop when the DAC turns up.

Thanks again - much appreciated.
Posted on: 11 January 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Now that makes the UnitiQute a lot more interesting - ideally I'd like it sans power amps, but it does mean I could use on the main system as streamer and in the office as a standalone player.

ATB Rotf


Hi Rotf

Yes I think that may well suit you very well, I also intended to respond to one of your earlier posts about perhaps converting your CDX2 to a transport.

May I offer a word of caution, I was quite taken when you visited here some time ago (Digital Shoot-out) by how you came alive when the CDX2 was played you so obviously preferred it to everything else and this is clearly not either system or room dependent as the system and room here could not have been more different to you own and therefore the presentation of the CDX2 really suits you.

The danger might be that by adding the DAC it will have the sound signature of the DAC rather than the CDX2 you love so much, so perhaps you could get your dealer to lend you a CDX2/2 + DAC to see how you feel about the DAC sound signature.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Posted on: 11 January 2010 by willip
A very helpful review
Posted on: 31 January 2010 by Rodborough
I just thought I would share a couple of interesting recent experiences as I had inadvertently left out a couple of interesting Naim products that do have the necessary digital output to potentially benefit from the upgrade made possible by the new Naim DAC.

The first one that I tried was the NaimNet NS-01 versus their own HDX, under normal circumstances the HDX is the clear winner mainly because of the potential upgrades exclusively available to it (XPS2/CD555PS). However, in much the same way as for the CD5 XS even these upgrades become available when combined with the new Naim DAC, because they are added to the DAC rather than the source component.

Sonically, when combined with the new Naim DAC both the NaimNet NS-01 and HDX perform equally well, although I would have to say that the touch screen on the HDX and it’s extremely user friendly user interface would make it my personal choice.

Recently, and thanks to a customer dem I had the opportunity to try the Naim DVD5, through the new Naim DAC, performing the duties of a CD transport, I have to confess this one had slipped under my radar as since it was discontinued we no longer have one on dem here, the results were surprisingly good, the dem was to compare it against the CD5 XS.

Whilst the DVD5 is an extraordinarily good DVD player it actually also performs very well as a CD player, better than most DVD players I have encountered, but then it does come from the same stable as probably the best range of CD Players currently available, but with that said perhaps performance just a little shy of what one might expect from say a CD5i.

However, when connected to the new Naim DAC we were in for quite a pleasant surprise when comparing it to the CD5 XS, which would normally blow the DVD5 into the weeds as a standalone CD Player, it actually came quite close. If one were being critical, you would have to say that the DVD5 was a little veiled by comparison. Both units do benefit extensively from all the potential upgrades to the DAC, particularly the XPS2 or CD555PS now made possible for the first time for both these units.

Not everybody is comfortable with this new “Digital Streaming” technology, something brought into sharp focus this weekend when a new client visited us, the brief was to replace an aging CD2 fronting a NAC-82/NA-PSC/Hicap – NAP-250/2 – Chartwell LS3/5a, happily we had an 82 to hand to do the dem and he brought along his LS3/5a. Being also an LP-12 owner expectations for a replacement CD Player were set fairly high and so we begun with a bare CD5 XS, this was clearly not hitting the mark but adding in the new Naim DAC brought that familiar ear to ear grin that we so often see here as the whole musical performance was just so engaging. The LS3/5a were truly amazing and this route provided an open door to the newly emerging digital technologies, we tried also his iPod through the system and Internet Radio from the Apple Macbook, but the star of the show was clearly the CD5 XS/DAC combo. He also forms part of a significant group of potential adopters of these new technologies who are holding back until they feel that a better user interface becomes available, it put me very much in mind of a very successful advertising slogan one of my computer companies used in the 1980’s “Computer solutions so simple even a grownup can use them”.

We concluded the dem by maxing out the combo adding Powerline’s, a Highline, a CD555PS and a NAP-300/300PS to the 82, absolutely awesome what these little LS3/5a were capable of delivering, for me as an aside a very welcome revisit to this classic loudspeaker design whilst trying to evaluate the new Naim S-600 Ovator.

I have a dem booked for February 3rd where we will be trying the legendary Linn CD12 through the new Naim DAC, quite excited about that one as well.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES