Naim DAC – a dealers initial perpective

Posted by: Rodborough on 20 December 2009

Having now had the new Naim DAC for almost two weeks I thought I would share some initial thoughts on something that is for me at least still very much a work in progress, it is a shame that the release has been delayed causing it’s appearance at one of the busiest times for dealers even in normal circumstances and this combined with the immanent increase in VAT to 17.5% next month has exacerbated this situation somewhat.

After allowing a few hours for the new DAC to acclimatise, always a danger of condensation when new equipment arrives in this extremely cold weather, but this gave me time to assemble all the necessary paraphernalia, just as well we had the Naim DC1 in all three versions RCA – RCA, RCA – BNC & BNC – BNC, also to hand was the CD5XS (BNC digital out), CDX2/2 (BNC digital out), HDX (RCA digital out), Linn Sneaky & Majik DS, Apple iPod, iPhone & MacBook, some Naim Powerline’s & HiLine’s and XPS2 & CD555PS.

It seemed a good idea to start off with the CD5XS, into the DAC using the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC), it has to be said that the sound was pretty aggressive, not unlike the old CDX on acid, common with brand new Naim that is neither burnt in, run in or warmed up, but after only a few minutes it begun to improve/calm down but I could not resist a quick comparison between CD5XS & CDX2/2 and was not totally surprised that there was not much between them at this point, I thought perhaps at the very least an overnight with music running through it might provide a better opportunity to make some more meaningful comparisons.

The next day the Naim DAC was transformed but I decided to begin with a straight comparison of CD5XS versus CDX2/2, using standard mains cables & interconnects, these are after all the best 5 series and CDX variants to date and both performed extremely well through our reference system with the CDX2/2 being the clear winner, although on a personal note I do find that the CDX2/2 can tilt a little in the direction of a slightly forward presentation to achieve higher levels of detail.

Via the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC) the new DAC was added to the CD5XS the improvement was breathtaking it brought out all of the detail whilst preserving the CD5XS units very musical sound and was a clear winner over the CDX2/2, to be fair to the CDX2/2 it does cost a little more CD5XS/DAC £3700.00, CDX2/2 £3,250.00 (VAT @ 15%), but in my view the best £450.00 extra it would be possible to invest, given the many other benefits the DAC is going to bring to future system development.

The next obvious step was to connect the DAC to the CDX2/2 once again a breathtaking improvement and slightly better than the CD5XS/DAC, in this configuration the CDX2/2 with DAC comes out at £5,200.00, £1,500.00 more than the CD5XS, not quite enough to add an XPS2 but certainly enough to add a HiLine and a Powerline to the DAC bringing the CD5XS/DAC/PowerLine/HiLine combination to £4,650.00 against the CDX2/2/DAC at £5,200.00 and now the CD5XS was the clear winner, and of course these benefits (adding HiLine & PowerLine) are shared by any other source components now running through the DAC.

Naturally the next step was to connect the CDX2/2 to the now slightly upgraded DAC and once again the CDX2/2 stamped its authority as the slightly superior combination, adding the PowerLine & HiLine to the DAC raisers the price stakes of this combination to £6,150.00 so my next experiment was to remove the PowerLine & HiLine and add an XPS2 to the CD5XS/DAC combination this being just £400.00 more at £6,550.00 and once again the CD5XS/DAC/XPS2 combination was the clear winner over the CDX2/2/DAC/Powerline/HiLine combination at £6,150.00 and a trend was beginning to emerge. Whilst in standalone operation the CDX2/2 is a superior CD player to the CD5XS the introduction into the mix of the Naim DAC has a levelling affect even though the CDX2/2 always comes out slightly ahead, that £1,500.00 price advantage that the CD5XS has though, if carefully invested in upgrades to the DAC, brings about advantages not only to the replay of CDs but of course to any other source components utilising the Naim DAC, I concluded my experiments through the following combinations:

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2 (£8,050.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£7,500.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£9,000.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£8,945.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£10,445.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy, HiLine (£9,500.00)

Up until this point the CD5XS combinations were often less expensive and yet superior, of course usually the XPS2 & CD555PS power supplies in former pre DAC days were upgrades available only to the CDX variants and would place them into a much higher league than any of the 5 series CD players adding the DAC however now makes these upgrades available to the CD5XS as well.

Having now taken the CD5XS to its current highest level of potential upgrades all that was now left to do was to connect the CDX2/2 to the fully upgraded DAC and the edge that the CDX2/2 had enjoyed throughout made it the best possible combination coming in at £11,000.00 over the CD5XS at £9,500.00.

I have gone back to this when time has permitted over the past couple of weeks and although the DAC continues to improve it has no affect upon the above results.

A reshuffle of the demonstrations rooms here has now taken the DAC off the reference system and into our mid to high-end room so that work could continue by introducing the NaimUnity, HDX/DAC, Linn DS/DAC, even iPod & MacBook/DAC into the equation and I will write more on that later in the thread.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 31 January 2010 by patrik0631
What was used for streaming the internet radio from the Apple Macbook to the Naim DAC? Was it Apple's Airport Express?

KR,

Patrick
Posted on: 31 January 2010 by Keith L
quote:
Posted Sun 31 January 2010 19:37 Hide Post
What was used for streaming the internet radio from the Apple Macbook to the Naim DAC? Was it Apple's Airport Express?


Why does the AE have to figure, unless the Macbook could not be placed in the same room as the Ndac?
Posted on: 31 January 2010 by Rodborough
Hi Patrick0631

Keith L is quite right as the Macbook was in the same room; it was a simple case of digital out of the Macbook into one of the optical inputs of the new Naim DAC.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 01 February 2010 by SteveJansen
Thanks Norman for the DVD5/DAC info. I've been using my DVD5 for CD duties, and it's level of performance is exactly as you describe. I have an LP12/Ittok/Lyra Helikon for more serious listening (although a WT Amadeus is tempting me), but I'm keen to experience the convenience of instant access to my digital music. It's good to know that adding the Naim DAC to my DVD5 won't be too far off the performance of the CD5XS, and enable me to play my computer music files through the DAC also.
Regards,
Greg
Posted on: 01 February 2010 by Plinko
Norman, did you try any methods other than Internet Radio from MAC to DAC? Lossless, Hi-Rez, etc....
Posted on: 01 February 2010 by Frank Abela
To be clear, I think Norman meant that the DVD/DAC was almost as good as the CD5XS/DAC (right, Norman?).

By the way, Norman, you made the comment that the CDX2d/DAC combo might bnot suit ROTF because he could 'lose' the liveliness of the CDX2d. My experience (brief though it was on Saturday) is that the DAC still allowed through the natural exuberance of the CDX2d. The performance seemed a bit like a more mature version of the CDX2d's childishly exuberant nature. I was very glad at that because I am a CDX2d fan.

I intend to try out CD5XS/DAC vs CDX2d at some stage as these are two of the options I am seriously considering for home use.
Posted on: 01 February 2010 by jacsac
Hi Norman,
Preferring the source to be sound more organic & natural, do you think the CDS3 with XPS still the choice, in comparing with the the CDX2-2 with dac and XPS?
Or they just share different presentation?

Thanks in Advance!
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Thanks Norman for the DVD5/DAC info. I've been using my DVD5 for CD duties, and it's level of performance is exactly as you describe. I have an LP12/Ittok/Lyra Helikon for more serious listening (although a WT Amadeus is tempting me), but I'm keen to experience the convenience of instant access to my digital music. It's good to know that adding the Naim DAC to my DVD5 won't be too far off the performance of the CD5XS, and enable me to play my computer music files through the DAC also.
Regards,
Greg


Hi Greg

Glad to be of help, actually we are finding that many of our vinyl based clients are finding digital streaming is providing them with a much more acceptable digital source, particularly those who have either not gone down the CD route at all or only invested in it towards the entry level end. Adding a Naim DAC (When they become more available) will greatly enhance your CD playback from the DVD5, whilst at the same time providing you with a digital hub which can facilitate future additions in this emerging technology as they come along.

Adding in any or all of the potential upgrades to the Naim DAC also benefits every component you eventually connect to it.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Norman, did you try any methods other than Internet Radio from MAC to DAC? Lossless, Hi-Rez, etc....


Hi Plinko

Not in this particular dem, but we have been experimenting with the Apple MacBook quite extensively now, the performance it greatly enhanced by playing back files ripped from CD and of course even more so by HD files, it is still very much a work in progress here, I have to say I am driven on in this endeavour as some members of this forum, who I hold enormous respect for, tell me they are getting truly excellent results, so far here, it has not quite come up to the standards we can achieve by adding either the Linn Majik DS or the HDX in front of the Naim DAC.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by Dev B (on the wheels of steel)
quote:
Originally posted by jacsac:
Hi Norman,
Preferring the source to be sound more organic & natural, do you think the CDS3 with XPS still the choice, in comparing with the the CDX2-2 with dac and XPS?
Or they just share different presentation?

Thanks in Advance!


Personally having owned a CDS3 and now CDX2.2/DAC/XPS I would say DAC every time as it is more true to the disc.

Kind regards

Dev
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
quote:
Now that makes the UnitiQute a lot more interesting - ideally I'd like it sans power amps, but it does mean I could use on the main system as streamer and in the office as a standalone player.

ATB Rotf


Hi Rotf

Yes I think that may well suit you very well, I also intended to respond to one of your earlier posts about perhaps converting your CDX2 to a transport.

May I offer a word of caution, I was quite taken when you visited here some time ago (Digital Shoot-out) by how you came alive when the CDX2 was played you so obviously preferred it to everything else and this is clearly not either system or room dependent as the system and room here could not have been more different to you own and therefore the presentation of the CDX2 really suits you.

The danger might be that by adding the DAC it will have the sound signature of the DAC rather than the CDX2 you love so much, so perhaps you could get your dealer to lend you a CDX2/2 + DAC to see how you feel about the DAC sound signature.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Hi Norman

I missed this post, but you're absolutely right. I need to audition very carefully. I genuinely prefer the original CDX2 aspirated with a 555PS to what I heard of the CDX2-2 at Naim HQ, but adding that DAC gave it a beguiling presentation. I'll need to audition the two variants to be absolutely sure and then there is that Rega Valve Isis .... which can serve DAC duties too.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
To be clear, I think Norman meant that the DVD/DAC was almost as good as the CD5XS/DAC (right, Norman?).


Hi Frank

Yes you are absolutely right the combinations being compared were the DVD5/DAC against the CD5XS/DAC

quote:
By the way, Norman, you made the comment that the CDX2d/DAC combo might bnot suit ROTF because he could 'lose' the liveliness of the CDX2d. My experience (brief though it was on Saturday) is that the DAC still allowed through the natural exuberance of the CDX2d. The performance seemed a bit like a more mature version of the CDX2d's childishly exuberant nature. I was very glad at that because I am a CDX2d fan.


I had the very great pleasure of meeting ROTF when he came here, gosh it must be a couple of years ago now and I was quite struck by how much he loved the presentation of the CDX2, personally whilst I love the “natural exuberance” of the CDX2 its slightly forward presentation is not really to my taste, it has always seemed to me that the CDX2 was striving to produce the degree of detail exhibited by the CDS3/XPS2 combo, but lacking the more natural balance of the latter, whilst the CD5XS captured the more natural balance perhaps of the CDS3/XPS2 it lacked the detail of either. Adding the DAC into the equation, took that slight rough edge off the CDX2 whilst at the same time adding bucket loads of detail to the CD5XS.

This was really why I was suggesting to ROTF a degree of caution, if he likes that rough edge, and many do, there was a possibility he might not like what the DAC was doing, he is a man of strong opinions, and has a very fine ear so I am quite sure he will review the options and make up his own mind.

quote:
I intend to try out CD5XS/DAC vs CDX2d at some stage as these are two of the options I am seriously considering for home use.


I hope you will share your results with us, I for one would be an avid reader, particularly if you take a similar path to me of reinvesting the price difference into the myriad of upgrade options.

I hope you will share your results with us, I for one would be an avid reader, particularly if you take a similar path to me of reinvesting the price difference into the myriad of upgrade options.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 02 February 2010 by Dungassin
quote:
quote:
Thanks Norman for the DVD5/DAC info. I've been using my DVD5 for CD duties, and it's level of performance is exactly as you describe. I have an LP12/Ittok/Lyra Helikon for more serious listening (although a WT Amadeus is tempting me), but I'm keen to experience the convenience of instant access to my digital music. It's good to know that adding the Naim DAC to my DVD5 won't be too far off the performance of the CD5XS, and enable me to play my computer music files through the DAC also.
Regards,
Greg


Could the slightly inferior performance of the DVD5 vs CD5XS as a transport be due to being unable to disable the analogue output from the DVD5, whereas I believe that with the 5XS you MUST turn off the analogue output if you wish to use the digital one?
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by Richard Dane
Norman, thanks for your report. Very interesting to me as one of the units I will try with the DAC (when I get it...) is my DVD5.

Out of interest, I'm assuming the DVD5 was set to PCM output? Also, were all the video outputs disabled and display turned off? When using the DVD5 as a CD player I found this made an appreciable difference and lifted it beyond CD5i level. In fact, it rather reminded me of the CDX I used to use. CDX2 was clearly better though...

Also, did you try the DVD5 into the DAC with any 24bit DVD-A or DAD discs?
Posted on: 03 February 2010 by SteveJansen
Even my friends who aren't into audio can hear the immediate improvement when the display & video output is turned off. It's not subtle, and it brings a welcome ease to the sound where before it was a little hard sounding compared to other Naim CDP's. I spent a good six months listening before I bothered to read through the whole manual and discovered it. That'll teach me...
Posted on: 04 February 2010 by Flojoe
Well it was my dvd5 that we were listening to. I also did not realise that you could improve the sound by turning the video output off. Will read the manual this week-end to find out how to do it. The demo was with a 282/300/6000 and was fantastic. I personnaly could not distinguish between the DVD5 and 5XS with the DAC attached, although I did notice that when we added a bare CDX2.2 it gave a much more 'out of the box' sound stage. We did not do CDX2.2/DAC as I want to maximise my DVD5 capability before deciding in a new front end.
Posted on: 04 February 2010 by Richard Dane
Flojoe,

as a standalone player, the DVD5 sounds appreciably better when the video circuitry is put to sleep by switching off the display. I don't know what effect this will have on it as a transport though.

When used as a transport with 2 channel music, it makes a big difference when the digital output is set to PCM 2 channel, rather than Bitstream multi-channel.

Can you recall how the digital output was set for your demo? If it was still on the default bitstream setting then it's exciting to think of the improvements switching to PCM output will bring...
Posted on: 05 February 2010 by Flojoe
Richard, sorry no. As I did,nt realise you could do this, I did,nt ask. Maybe if Rodborough looks at this he may recall.
Posted on: 07 February 2010 by Stover
A great thread Norman.
Thanks a lot for your insightsful write up.

Regards Steinar
Posted on: 07 February 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Could the slightly inferior performance of the DVD5 vs CD5XS as a transport be due to being unable to disable the analogue output from the DVD5, whereas I believe that with the 5XS you MUST turn off the analogue output if you wish to use the digital one?


Hi John

I suspect the sonic benefits of the “swing out” draw on CD5XS should not be overlooked; it’s a very elegant solution as fitted to everything from NaimUnity to CDX2/2, among other factors.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 07 February 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
Out of interest, I'm assuming the DVD5 was set to PCM output? Also, were all the video outputs disabled and display turned off?


Hi Richard

Yes & Yes

I have had more time to visit this again with another DVD5 and whilst turning off the Video outputs has a dramatic benefit in stand alone, when combined with the DAC, this becomes more marginal. The DAC it seems to be is a great leveller.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 07 February 2010 by Rodborough
quote:
The demo was with a 282/300/6000 and was fantastic.


Hi Flojoe

I am really glad you enjoyed the dem, just to be clear though the system we were using was as follows:

NAC-282/NA-PSC
Hicap2
NAP-300
Ovator S-600

The Naim DAC had standard cables and a BNC – BNC Naim DC-1

Looking forward to doing the home demo for you when the current madness that surrounds this product abates and Naim can tell me more accurately when shipments can be expected, it is becoming difficult to manage customer expectations.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 07 February 2010 by Paul Stephenson
the current madness that surrounds this product abates and Naim can tell me more accurately when shipments can be expected, it is becoming difficult to manage

Norman,I have been on the road for a while but its not difficult,demand is greater than supply right now,the factory is doing all it can to get enough product out into the stores. I am sure we can give you estimates based on your order dates. Just give us a call.
Posted on: 07 February 2010 by Mr Underhill
quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
... whilst turning off the Video outputs [of the DVD5] has a dramatic benefit in stand alone, when combined with the DAC, this becomes more marginal. The DAC it seems to be is a great leveller.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES


Thx Norman,

This is great news for me.

Within the context of my system the Naim DAC bare did not pulverise my Benchmark DAC1 in any sense, but it definitely had a musical edge. I decided on the purchase based on the fact that I also love watching PCM music DVDs, and the use of the Naim DAC as a digital hub is attractive. Anything which gives me better sound quality is welcome!

The other thing that REALLY surprised me was how good 128Kbps streamed audio sounded. It degraded at the frequency extremes, but was more than good enough for me to decide whether to invest in buying a disc to rip - no more bad purchases based on reviews.

M
Posted on: 14 February 2010 by Alex317
Last week I compared a CD5XS with a DAC with just a CDX2/2 via a Supernait and a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor speakers. I would say that there is no competition. The CDX2/2 sounded much better, a lot more definition, better placement plus the sound image was much bigger. Adding the DAC to the CDX2 brought a big improvement in the definition in the mid and high register compared to just the CDX2, voices and strings were much clearer with the DAC. But is seemed the sound image was top-heavy, the higher sound register was almost a little too emphasized as if it leaned towards the listener. Either the lower register wasn't processed properly or was lost to me compared to what happened to the higher register. Conclusion I would always buy the CDX2/2 over the CD5XS/DAC-combo.