Naim DAC – a dealers initial perpective

Posted by: Rodborough on 20 December 2009

Having now had the new Naim DAC for almost two weeks I thought I would share some initial thoughts on something that is for me at least still very much a work in progress, it is a shame that the release has been delayed causing it’s appearance at one of the busiest times for dealers even in normal circumstances and this combined with the immanent increase in VAT to 17.5% next month has exacerbated this situation somewhat.

After allowing a few hours for the new DAC to acclimatise, always a danger of condensation when new equipment arrives in this extremely cold weather, but this gave me time to assemble all the necessary paraphernalia, just as well we had the Naim DC1 in all three versions RCA – RCA, RCA – BNC & BNC – BNC, also to hand was the CD5XS (BNC digital out), CDX2/2 (BNC digital out), HDX (RCA digital out), Linn Sneaky & Majik DS, Apple iPod, iPhone & MacBook, some Naim Powerline’s & HiLine’s and XPS2 & CD555PS.

It seemed a good idea to start off with the CD5XS, into the DAC using the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC), it has to be said that the sound was pretty aggressive, not unlike the old CDX on acid, common with brand new Naim that is neither burnt in, run in or warmed up, but after only a few minutes it begun to improve/calm down but I could not resist a quick comparison between CD5XS & CDX2/2 and was not totally surprised that there was not much between them at this point, I thought perhaps at the very least an overnight with music running through it might provide a better opportunity to make some more meaningful comparisons.

The next day the Naim DAC was transformed but I decided to begin with a straight comparison of CD5XS versus CDX2/2, using standard mains cables & interconnects, these are after all the best 5 series and CDX variants to date and both performed extremely well through our reference system with the CDX2/2 being the clear winner, although on a personal note I do find that the CDX2/2 can tilt a little in the direction of a slightly forward presentation to achieve higher levels of detail.

Via the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC) the new DAC was added to the CD5XS the improvement was breathtaking it brought out all of the detail whilst preserving the CD5XS units very musical sound and was a clear winner over the CDX2/2, to be fair to the CDX2/2 it does cost a little more CD5XS/DAC £3700.00, CDX2/2 £3,250.00 (VAT @ 15%), but in my view the best £450.00 extra it would be possible to invest, given the many other benefits the DAC is going to bring to future system development.

The next obvious step was to connect the DAC to the CDX2/2 once again a breathtaking improvement and slightly better than the CD5XS/DAC, in this configuration the CDX2/2 with DAC comes out at £5,200.00, £1,500.00 more than the CD5XS, not quite enough to add an XPS2 but certainly enough to add a HiLine and a Powerline to the DAC bringing the CD5XS/DAC/PowerLine/HiLine combination to £4,650.00 against the CDX2/2/DAC at £5,200.00 and now the CD5XS was the clear winner, and of course these benefits (adding HiLine & PowerLine) are shared by any other source components now running through the DAC.

Naturally the next step was to connect the CDX2/2 to the now slightly upgraded DAC and once again the CDX2/2 stamped its authority as the slightly superior combination, adding the PowerLine & HiLine to the DAC raisers the price stakes of this combination to £6,150.00 so my next experiment was to remove the PowerLine & HiLine and add an XPS2 to the CD5XS/DAC combination this being just £400.00 more at £6,550.00 and once again the CD5XS/DAC/XPS2 combination was the clear winner over the CDX2/2/DAC/Powerline/HiLine combination at £6,150.00 and a trend was beginning to emerge. Whilst in standalone operation the CDX2/2 is a superior CD player to the CD5XS the introduction into the mix of the Naim DAC has a levelling affect even though the CDX2/2 always comes out slightly ahead, that £1,500.00 price advantage that the CD5XS has though, if carefully invested in upgrades to the DAC, brings about advantages not only to the replay of CDs but of course to any other source components utilising the Naim DAC, I concluded my experiments through the following combinations:

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2 (£8,050.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£7,500.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£9,000.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£8,945.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£10,445.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy, HiLine (£9,500.00)

Up until this point the CD5XS combinations were often less expensive and yet superior, of course usually the XPS2 & CD555PS power supplies in former pre DAC days were upgrades available only to the CDX variants and would place them into a much higher league than any of the 5 series CD players adding the DAC however now makes these upgrades available to the CD5XS as well.

Having now taken the CD5XS to its current highest level of potential upgrades all that was now left to do was to connect the CDX2/2 to the fully upgraded DAC and the edge that the CDX2/2 had enjoyed throughout made it the best possible combination coming in at £11,000.00 over the CD5XS at £9,500.00.

I have gone back to this when time has permitted over the past couple of weeks and although the DAC continues to improve it has no affect upon the above results.

A reshuffle of the demonstrations rooms here has now taken the DAC off the reference system and into our mid to high-end room so that work could continue by introducing the NaimUnity, HDX/DAC, Linn DS/DAC, even iPod & MacBook/DAC into the equation and I will write more on that later in the thread.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 28 February 2010 by luxen2
No complaint from me.

I love what the DAC does...

No digital-edge, no processed-stuff...just beautiful flowing music...
No hiss...Everything totally right...

Strange...
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by luxen2
Honestly speaking, I find it rather silly to compare a CDP like the incredibly good CDS3 with the DAC...

The CDS3 is about 7900€ and the DAC is around 2600€...

IMHO, the DAC is excellent value for money and a perfect match to the CD5XS in my system.

I can in no way agree with all this "digital-in-your-face"-stuff.

Yesterday, I compared some of my favourite CDs either on the CD or as wav-files on an USB-stick.

I actually preferred the presentation of the DAC/stick-combo to that of the CD5XS/DAC-combo...

And for reasons exactly opposit to many findings here: I found it warmer, more flowing, more detailed and more like analoque...

It is really strange how the opinions differ here on the DAC.

But I guess it is "hip" to bash new products... Winker

PS:

1. CDS3 + XPS = 11646€
2. CD5XS + DAC = 4950€
3. CD5XS + DAC+ XPS = 8698€

To compare especially the first two is really stupid, sorry.
Even between 1 and 3 are nearly 3000€...
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by gary yeowell
I think you have got it round the wrong way Luxen, if you read posts over the last few months it's been very 'hip' to bash CD players and many people have been quick to conclude that the new DAC with just about any streaming device is better than any CD player.

My post quite clearly stated that my CDS3/XPS2 was much better to my ears than a CDX2.2/DAC/XPS2/DC1. The price between these two combinations is not that much.

Gary.
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by js
Try it with an HDX. Price wise, HDX DAC PS is comparable to CDS3 PS and the HDX is a overall a better source than the CDX2 or especially a stick or macbook as others have used to compare.
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by gone
It seems that the DAC has opened up discussions on many comarisons which previously were just not possible. But to find that a CDS3/XPS2 is better than a CDX2.2/DAC/XPS2/DC1 should not be so surprising. They are still CD players, and the CDX does not have the same vibration damping that the CDS3 has, or the same transport/error correction/etc or indeed DAC. So the DAC is on a hiding to nothing.
Of more relevance is how the top CD players compare with the DAC driven by 'computer' sources (streamers, hard disk, Macs, PCs) and the permutations are endless.
I find it difficult to reconcile some of the comments here about the 'digital' nature of the DAC sound (if it is that), and I'd really like to understand the psychoacoustic trigger, but if people are hearing it, who are we to argue?
When I had a dealer demo of the DAC, it gave such a mixed performance, that I would have agreed with you, and on that basis, I wouldn't have walked out the shop with it under my arm. But I bought it anyway, and at least with an HDX/555PS, it's absolutely wonderful. There is no sign of 'tape hiss' or 'digital artefact', doubly confusing by the fact that it is the low level information which is more startling than anything else.
I'm beginning to wonder if the setup of the DAC re: power supplies, etc is as sensitive as any other component in the Naim stable - I took ages getting all my cable runs right. Is it possible that the hotel environment is just too difficult to get a good sound (of course this should not apply to dealer demos, or Naim's own listening room).
My audio memory of the CDS3 and CD555 is fading, but both were (are!) superb CD players, but the HDX/DAC is just getting better.
But if you don't have a need for hi-res files, downloads and so on, the justification for a DAC is slim - stick with the CD players!

Mind you, my HDX is sounding completely broken since the HDX-SD was mentioned Winker
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by luxen2
No, I do not have it the wrong way.

I just came to my own conclusion:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Music is in the ear of the "behearer".

I am just sick and tired and I will stop giving my comments on posts where the saying goes like this:

* The ____________ is better than the ________.

So, if someone hears that the DAC sounds too digital with too much hiss and with or without whatever, so dont buy it. Easy.

I bought it.
I love it.
I do not hear "digital stuff bothering me".

So I go to shut-my-mouth-town now.
Big Grin

FWIW,

I went to my dealer´s show evening and they had the big stuff on:

CDX2.2/XPS/DAC/HDX/300/252/XS/Supernait/HDX/....all in different variations through the Ovators.

And I went home and thought:
"Boy, I am at 15000€ right now and I heard stuff for three,four times this money and I realized: My system is good enough.
I did NOT feel/hear/see/experienced musical differences in terms of 15000 or 20000€ more in payment...honestly.
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by sjust
Luxen, just for the sake of swimming against the stream, I admire your position here, and will - as time permits - compare CDS3 toa DAC/XPS2 combo, soon. For the last year or so, the CDS3 gets less than 5 percent air time, and various DAC's (currently, a CambridgeAudio DACMagic) fed by Apple hardware. Unless I turn the volume up, and/or really, really listen - for the sake of listening - I don't miss anything. This does not say there is no difference. There IS ! It's just that I don't MISS anything. On the other side, I GAIN a lot (comfort). Still, I spend 3-6 hours in front of my music, daily (when at home)…

My "workflow", when I get new CD's has ever since been: Rip the CD lossless to the NAS, and play it from any Mac in the house to any system in the house.

Poor CDS3 is collecting dust.

cheers
Stefan


quote:
Originally posted by luxen2:
Honestly speaking, I find it rather silly to compare a CDP like the incredibly good CDS3 with the DAC...

The CDS3 is about 7900€ and the DAC is around 2600€...

IMHO, the DAC is excellent value for money and a perfect match to the CD5XS in my system.

I can in no way agree with all this "digital-in-your-face"-stuff.

Yesterday, I compared some of my favourite CDs either on the CD or as wav-files on an USB-stick.

I actually preferred the presentation of the DAC/stick-combo to that of the CD5XS/DAC-combo...

And for reasons exactly opposit to many findings here: I found it warmer, more flowing, more detailed and more like analoque...

It is really strange how the opinions differ here on the DAC.

But I guess it is "hip" to bash new products... Winker

PS:

1. CDS3 + XPS = 11646€
2. CD5XS + DAC = 4950€
3. CD5XS + DAC+ XPS = 8698€

To compare especially the first two is really stupid, sorry.
Even between 1 and 3 are nearly 3000€...
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:
Originally posted by gary yeowell:

My post quite clearly stated that my CDS3/XPS2 was much better to my ears than a CDX2.2/DAC/XPS2/DC1.

Gary.


Exactly what would be expected. The DAC in the CDS3 is designed and configured in simple harmony with the CD source. The power supply complements the player. There is everything that is neeed for fine CD playback, and nothing that isn't.

On the other hand, the CDX2.2/DAC/XPS2/DC1 system has a lot of extra functionality and redundancy that is useful to many, but that won't necessarily contribute to improving quality of CD playback.

A specialist tool, doing what it was designed to do, will almost always outperform a multi-tool at the same pricepoint.
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by gary yeowell
Absolutely! The functionality of the DAC cannot be beaten.

For my own purpose i want nothing more than to put a CD in a tray and press play, and come to think of it it took me 25 years to get to that point. Before i wanted nothing more than to drop a needle on a record.

Gary.
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by winkyincanada
So we're all happy. Those that want the simplicity and value-for-money of specialist CD playback and those that are prepared to pay for increased flexibility and convenience of HD-based replay.

Personally, I love HD-based replay and would never go back to individual CDs, but I would not claim that it is a soncially superior sytem. But it's plenty good enough for me, especially at the price I paid for my source (Mac Mini) compared to the more esoteric options being discussed here.
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by BigH47
quote:
and convenience of HD-based replay.



I love that statement, along with the thousand odd threads on how to get the tracks to be convenient.
Posted on: 01 March 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:
Originally posted by BigH47:
quote:
and convenience of HD-based replay.



I love that statement, along with the thousand odd threads on how to get the tracks to be convenient.


I don't bitch or moan about it. I just use iTunes exactly as it was intended and it is all-but flawless from a convenience perspective.

Others chase some holy grail and introduce additional complexity. Same as it ever was. Worth it for some, not for me. You want fussy and inconvenient? look at an LP12 tuning thread, or one on dressing Burndies. Bedini clarifier anybody?
Posted on: 02 March 2010 by Chris Kelly
quote:
Bedini clarifier anybody?


Yes as it happens. I have one - it works!
Posted on: 07 March 2010 by Rodborough
Hi

May I thank all of you guys for contributing to this thread and for some very kind words as well, clearly opinions are divided but that is just as it should be what a drab world it would be if it became a one size fits all solution to these things.

Personally I think the key to understanding the N-DAC is the casework selection, it is after all in the 5-series casework making it aesthetically at least the ideal partner for the CD5XS, perhaps at a future date we may see “Reference” and even 500-series versions.

By way of additional insight, I am now able to report on the long promised addition of trying the N-DAC on a serious “high end” CD player that sports a suitable digital output in this case the Linn CD12.

I felt no need to try anything less than a fully “tooled-up” N-DAC for this experiment so it was configured as follows:

CD12 (Through DAC)
N-DAC
CD555PS
Burndy
DC-1
HiLine
Powerlines on DAC, 555PS & CD12

Alternatively

CD12 (Standalone)
Powerline
HiLine (2 x RCA to Din)

It was unanimously agreed by all who listened that the CD12 sounded much better when used in “standalone” which for me at least answered some nagging questions and would seem to explain why Naim’s own “high end” CD players (CDS3 & CD555) are not sporting digital outputs, perhaps when striving for the ultimate in CD replay designers are finding that control over every aspect of the design gives the best results as an integrated package or there is now a gap opening up in the market for Naim to produce a 500 series DAC, the runaway success of the current N-DAC I am sure will help greatly in pushing the “Go” button for such a R & D project that’s for sure.

Now for an accidental discovery, our standard Linn Majik DS unit was out on home loan with a client, needing one for a dem I used our Linn Majik DS-i connected through the N-DAC. Later that day Ian needed to test a Linn turntable he had been working on that was fitted with a moving magnet cartridge, noticing the Majik DS-i was set up in one of our dem rooms he plugged the Linn Turntable into the MM input on the Majik DS-i, to our amazement the HD light on the N-DAC lit and we were now listening to a Linn turntable through a Majik DS-i that was outputting a 24/96 data stream through the digital output into the Naim DAC, now that was unexpected, presumably it would do the same if the moving coil version was used and for any of the other analogue inputs, will let you know when Ii have had a chance to speak to Linn and had time to do the necessary work on this one.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES