SuperLine Loading Thread.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Just a thought, but who in there right mind would swop there Superline for a West 30R Phono Stage??

Just a thought, but who in there right mind would swop there Superline for a Urika Phono Stage??

and a Supercapped one too....

Yep.

I guess it's just a different flavour, I reckon.

quote:

Originally posted by Name:
I'm running a Nott Space Deck, Spacearm and Helikon SL. After a good listening session with my local dealer...drop roll please... the award goes to custom 592 ohms and 1nF.

That's interesting.

Have you tried a 590R/ no cap?

Well, no one is perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Well, no one is perfect.

Indeed...and with no load plugs in the design!

It's interesting to read how a few people are now using no load plugs now on the Superline and prefer it! I myself have always found the Airplug version of a particular cartridge load to sound better....... This seems to suggest more investigation is required into ensuring the quality of connection is maximised. Maybe this is more important than the exact load itself!

I will follow up this line of thought on my return.............

KR

Peter

peter

what are you doing in munich?

back on topic - i don't give much on "nominal" cartridge loadings. a shelter 501 can take anything from 100 ohms up to 47.000 depending on the stage and the rest of the system...

i guess no airplug sounds even better than w/ airplug.
regards
+bf

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Just a thought, but who in there right mind would swop there Superline for a Urika Phono Stage??

Seems to be those with Linn cartridges.

quote:

i guess no airplug sounds even better than w/ airplug.

In that case when my warranty expires I may cut the wires to the loading sockets

quote:

Originally posted by Frank F:

quote:

i guess no airplug sounds even better than w/ airplug.

I tried this and overall it is not better. The Airplug reigns supreme at the moment FF

.....and continues to be the best way of achieving the maximum from one's Superline.

I did pose the questions regarding the internal sodering on the loading sockets and the removal of excess sockets (phono or load) at the Naim BBQ recently and I can confirm that this will invalidate your warranty as expected.

BF. A little work, rest and play thank you.

Kind regards,

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by blackforest:

... a shelter 501 can take anything from 100 ohms up to 47.000 depending on the stage and the rest of the system...

i guess no airplug sounds even better than w/ airplug.
regards
+bf

Tom Evans:

"Designing for low noise at low impedances is a real challenge. To avoid this challenge many preamplifier designers just use a high input resistance and thereby force the cartridge to work into the wrong load. Some moving coil (=MC) cartridge manufacturers specify a loading resistance of 47kOhm. While in theory this may give an acceptable noise specification for the preamplifier, it does not provide the necessary damping for the MC cartridge (this 47kOhm input resistance is the "compromise" setting that was decided upon for loading MM cartridges. It is a theoretical figure and it only is the correct termination for a few (but by far not for all) MM cartridges. It is certainly not correct for MC cartridges. Most MC cartridges perform best with a load of between 20 Ohm and a few hundred Ohm).

The elevating top-end caused by improper loading can sometimes be perceived as 'air' or high-frequency extension, but in reality, it is actually odd-harmonic high frequency distortion. In a very well balanced reproduction system, it will sound edgy and bright."

Best regards,
Lyubo

quote:

Most MC cartridges perform best with a load of between 20 Ohm and a few hundred Ohm).

lyubo

this is tom evans marketing blurb in my opinion. all the benz carts run at 22K for example - as in the PP1 phono stage.

you can run any shelter and almost any carts at 47kohms.

there is one design feature by stan klyne called HFC (high frequency contour) which addresses the exact problems you were writing about.

i used to have a klyne 6LE/P and almost any cart runs with either 1.4 kohms or 47kohms HFC filtered.

just the way it is

now back to the superline: i am really curious why "naked" aka 10 kohms (which is almost the same as 47 kohms) did sound so good with my shelters. a 202/200 capped is high res enough to show the differences - at least i think so.

no experience with dv carts though.

all in all i think nominal cartridge loadings don't make so much sense.

regards
+bf

The more I look at this thread, it seems to me that after over half a century of electro-magnetic pick-up cartridges on gramophones, even the most basic design and specification issues have not been satisfactorilly addressed, let alone adequately been solved.

After reading quite alot of this thread over the months I wonder why on earth anyone would bother to use such a crumbly irregular system as a turntable fitted with an electromagnetic pick-up cartridge.

Quite amazing, and shows exactly why a good digital music replay system, which is properly designed and matched from end to end, is always going to provide reliable good sound year after year, and allow the listener to forget replay and get on with enjoying music!

ATB from George

I kind of agree with you George, and at present i'm back to CD only. However recently i had the pleasure to hear an LP12/ARO/Keel/Radikal/Akiva into a Nait and it made me smile more than any 555 into anything i have heard before..... so i guess i know why people persist with that old wobbly needle thing.

Gary.

george

it's also how many records vs. cd one owns. i don't have any cdp at all (used to have a CD5) but i recently heard a very nice CDi i liked a lot.

you're abs. right - cd replay is really uncritical compared to the many variables and the pain of tweaking and setting up a high end tt. but after all this can be fun as well.

regards
+bf

Still not heard any system that beats a good(not even a great ) TT setup. Crumbly or irregular it may be , but it gets more off a record than the system with all the missing "bits" of information.
Check out all the "tweakery" on the DA thread.

Dear Howard,

I know - and it's just as anal.

I have given this all up as you know, and am just using headphone directly off a nice PC with iTunes as the librarian.

I have never had anything nearly so good in the musical replay line, and I have had some very nice pieces of kit in their day in the past.

No tweakery, and I am having to re-asses the quality of the music making contained in the recordings some of which I have known for nearly forty years.

I can tell you for sure that this little set gets far more music out of the recordings than any vinyl replay of the disc issues of the same recordings, and lays bare the artistry in a manner that even CD replay with its inhibiting "on the fly" error correction cannot quite manage.

The future is digital and it is in server type replay direct from Hard Drive storage based on this kind of evidence.

The rest is simply eclipsed in my experience.

And no! Until I tried it I would not have believed it either. I had assumed this would be a compromise move, but it is the biggest step forward in replay that I have ever encountered.

But you know me, I would do anything legal to get the best out of my collection of music recordings, and I have ...

ATB from George

quote:

The future is digital and it is in server type replay direct from Hard Drive storage based on this kind of evidence.

Until they invent some thing new. Then they will be comparing that to the still being used vinyl and CD.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

I have given this all up as you know, and am just using headphone directly off a nice PC with iTunes as the librarian.

I have never had anything nearly so good in the musical replay line, and I have had some very nice pieces of kit in their day in the past.

George, I know what you mean. Sometimes I listen late at night to my lowly iPod Shuffle with headphones, and there is a directness that is extremely appealing and satisfying. Obviously it's completely different from the big rig with speakers, lacking a lot of impact, tonality and so on, but for just appreciating the music making, it's very nice indeed.

Sometimes something apparently too simple to work at at all can actually be the very best possible solution.

Not something that is easily accepted by those who enjoy the trials of complexity and sophistication I am sure.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:

quote:

The future is digital and it is in server type replay direct from Hard Drive storage based on this kind of evidence.

Until they invent some thing new. Then they will be comparing that to the still being used vinyl and CD.

If it is simple, better, and good VFM, then I shall be investigating.

I am for the music - not any specific means of replay, especially ones that were never very good, and are now well and truly eclipsed for me.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by blackforest:

you can run any shelter and almost any carts at 47kohms.

all in all i think nominal cartridge loadings don't make so much sense.

+bf

Yes bf - you can run any carts at 47kohms. Here is something from Mr. A.J. van den Hul - no "marketing blurb" I think:

"So playing with the input impedance means also playing with the sound character.
The influence of the load impedance on the differences in sound is caused by the change of the crosstalk levels and the amplitude raise at the resonance frequency. The lower the load impedance, the lower the amplitude raise (actually Qfactor), the higher the current and the more dynamic the sound.

So, to keep it simple, with a higher cartridge load impedance you run the risk to have some extra distorted or harsh sound between your 2 loudspeakers.

But... with a good cartridge a higher load impedance can also be a good option: The spatial reproduction improves and, when being a lover of Vivaldi and his friends, the church (or at that time the cathedral) will sound even more magnificent.

There are audiophiles who load their M.C. cartridge directly with the 47 kOhm of the M.M. input on the pre-amplifier. And why not? Any experiment that you do in live is a part of your learning curve. So give it a serious try. When you like it and the technology is (this time, as an exception) friendly for you, enjoy it."

Best regards,
Lyubo

Please see OP

"Please keep all discussions on topic. The ultimate intention is to have a database of users opinion for each of the various cartridges being used.'

Tend to agree; Any small single point sound source especially at a distance finds it easy to convey the basic message .Tells you everything you need to know without the luxury.
carl.

lyobo

have you tried a Superline in your setup yet? please report your findings - in my opinion Sh 501 and 301 sounded best open (8kohm). which is very close to 47k.

the "harshness" can be caused by resonances but there are is a school of thought that MCs run their best with a high impendance.

the klyne phonomodules in the 6 and 7 series amps work their best at high impendances - regardless of what van den hul or tom evans think (i have a high opinion of both but then there are so many hardware designers and each one of them is right when the results are okay.)

regards
+bf

quote:

Originally posted by blackforest:
lyobo

have you tried a Superline in your setup yet?
regards
+bf

Yes Sir, I have tried Superline with:

a) XV-1s - strictly 453R/none.
b) vdH Condor XGM for Aro - 453R/1nF. By the way this is new value for me after discovery, that my cartridge is High Output (0,45 mV) and recommended loading is 500R. Until recently I have run in error 220R/1nF intended for Medium Output Condor (0,35 mV), where recommended loading is 200R. There is huge difference - believe me!

Oh, and Airplugs are obligatory!

Thank you Munch

Regards,
Lyubo