Naim DAC – a dealers initial perpective

Posted by: Rodborough on 20 December 2009

Having now had the new Naim DAC for almost two weeks I thought I would share some initial thoughts on something that is for me at least still very much a work in progress, it is a shame that the release has been delayed causing it’s appearance at one of the busiest times for dealers even in normal circumstances and this combined with the immanent increase in VAT to 17.5% next month has exacerbated this situation somewhat.

After allowing a few hours for the new DAC to acclimatise, always a danger of condensation when new equipment arrives in this extremely cold weather, but this gave me time to assemble all the necessary paraphernalia, just as well we had the Naim DC1 in all three versions RCA – RCA, RCA – BNC & BNC – BNC, also to hand was the CD5XS (BNC digital out), CDX2/2 (BNC digital out), HDX (RCA digital out), Linn Sneaky & Majik DS, Apple iPod, iPhone & MacBook, some Naim Powerline’s & HiLine’s and XPS2 & CD555PS.

It seemed a good idea to start off with the CD5XS, into the DAC using the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC), it has to be said that the sound was pretty aggressive, not unlike the old CDX on acid, common with brand new Naim that is neither burnt in, run in or warmed up, but after only a few minutes it begun to improve/calm down but I could not resist a quick comparison between CD5XS & CDX2/2 and was not totally surprised that there was not much between them at this point, I thought perhaps at the very least an overnight with music running through it might provide a better opportunity to make some more meaningful comparisons.

The next day the Naim DAC was transformed but I decided to begin with a straight comparison of CD5XS versus CDX2/2, using standard mains cables & interconnects, these are after all the best 5 series and CDX variants to date and both performed extremely well through our reference system with the CDX2/2 being the clear winner, although on a personal note I do find that the CDX2/2 can tilt a little in the direction of a slightly forward presentation to achieve higher levels of detail.

Via the Naim DC1 (BNC – BNC) the new DAC was added to the CD5XS the improvement was breathtaking it brought out all of the detail whilst preserving the CD5XS units very musical sound and was a clear winner over the CDX2/2, to be fair to the CDX2/2 it does cost a little more CD5XS/DAC £3700.00, CDX2/2 £3,250.00 (VAT @ 15%), but in my view the best £450.00 extra it would be possible to invest, given the many other benefits the DAC is going to bring to future system development.

The next obvious step was to connect the DAC to the CDX2/2 once again a breathtaking improvement and slightly better than the CD5XS/DAC, in this configuration the CDX2/2 with DAC comes out at £5,200.00, £1,500.00 more than the CD5XS, not quite enough to add an XPS2 but certainly enough to add a HiLine and a Powerline to the DAC bringing the CD5XS/DAC/PowerLine/HiLine combination to £4,650.00 against the CDX2/2/DAC at £5,200.00 and now the CD5XS was the clear winner, and of course these benefits (adding HiLine & PowerLine) are shared by any other source components now running through the DAC.

Naturally the next step was to connect the CDX2/2 to the now slightly upgraded DAC and once again the CDX2/2 stamped its authority as the slightly superior combination, adding the PowerLine & HiLine to the DAC raisers the price stakes of this combination to £6,150.00 so my next experiment was to remove the PowerLine & HiLine and add an XPS2 to the CD5XS/DAC combination this being just £400.00 more at £6,550.00 and once again the CD5XS/DAC/XPS2 combination was the clear winner over the CDX2/2/DAC/Powerline/HiLine combination at £6,150.00 and a trend was beginning to emerge. Whilst in standalone operation the CDX2/2 is a superior CD player to the CD5XS the introduction into the mix of the Naim DAC has a levelling affect even though the CDX2/2 always comes out slightly ahead, that £1,500.00 price advantage that the CD5XS has though, if carefully invested in upgrades to the DAC, brings about advantages not only to the replay of CDs but of course to any other source components utilising the Naim DAC, I concluded my experiments through the following combinations:

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2 (£8,050.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£7,500.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/XPS2/PowerLine/HiLine (£9,000.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£8,945.00)

CDX2/2/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy (£10,445.00) versus CD5XS/DAC/CD555PS [PowerLine included]/S-XPS Burndy, HiLine (£9,500.00)

Up until this point the CD5XS combinations were often less expensive and yet superior, of course usually the XPS2 & CD555PS power supplies in former pre DAC days were upgrades available only to the CDX variants and would place them into a much higher league than any of the 5 series CD players adding the DAC however now makes these upgrades available to the CD5XS as well.

Having now taken the CD5XS to its current highest level of potential upgrades all that was now left to do was to connect the CDX2/2 to the fully upgraded DAC and the edge that the CDX2/2 had enjoyed throughout made it the best possible combination coming in at £11,000.00 over the CD5XS at £9,500.00.

I have gone back to this when time has permitted over the past couple of weeks and although the DAC continues to improve it has no affect upon the above results.

A reshuffle of the demonstrations rooms here has now taken the DAC off the reference system and into our mid to high-end room so that work could continue by introducing the NaimUnity, HDX/DAC, Linn DS/DAC, even iPod & MacBook/DAC into the equation and I will write more on that later in the thread.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Don Atkinson
What a brilliant, clearly written, nicely explained piece of work. With straightforward, honest, results.

Fantastic.

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by nocker
Great write up Norman, looking forward to hearing the DAC for myself. I will come and see you in the New Year. Regards
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Norman,

Very clear and helpful review! Interesting to me that it takes about a day for the DAC to come "on song" with the CD5XS.

This will not be my route now, though it might very well have been, so many here will be just as pleased to read your words as I have been, Thanks for it ...

Have a Happy Christmas, and my best wishes to you and all the Naim family from George
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Red Rooster
Good reading

All we need now is a comparable CDS3/XPS2 or 555PS comparitor and we will be off and running.

RR
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by nitrous
Norman a fab write up many thanks.

I actually took delivery of a CD5xs four weeks ago and I'm seriuosly thinking of the DAC route. I'm using mine with a hicap which made a substantial improvement. (When the CD5XS was new and without Hicap it was a bit 'weedy' and bright, it certainly isn't now its run in!).

If I get a DAC I assume (and I'm hoping) that I will not need the hicap, is that correct?

I hope so as I'm running out of sockets!!!!
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Cymbiosis
quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
Having now had the new Naim DAC for almost two weeks I thought I would share some initial thoughts on something that is for me at least still very much a work in progress, it is a shame that the release has been delayed causing it’s appearance at one of the busiest times for dealers even in normal circumstances and this combined with the immanent increase in VAT to 17.5% next month has exacerbated this situation somewhat.

I have gone back to this when time has permitted over the past couple of weeks and although the DAC continues to improve it has no affect upon the above results.

A reshuffle so that work could continue by introducing the NaimUnity, HDX/DAC, Linn DS/DAC, even iPod & MacBook/DAC into the equation and I will write more on that later in the thread.

I hope that’s helpful anyway

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES


Very Norman Smile

I certainly echo your comments on the timing of the arrival too. I've had little time to listen seriously, as I've just had to concentrate on getting things done for clients in advance of their Christmas break......Turntables everywhere and little time to post here either! But, hey-ho at least we've got it at last! Big Grin Phil, my manager has been experimenting using the HDX mainly, but also using a MacBook Vs various DS players and also a MacBook/Lavry DA10 combo. I must say what I've been hearing has been very good indeed! Cool

I anticipate all Naim dealers will be busy over the Christmas period demonstrating the DAC while everyone's having a break.

IMHO a pivotal and excellent new product from HQ - Fab! Cool

KR

Peter
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:
If I get a DAC I assume (and I'm hoping) that I will not need the hicap,

My guess is that you will be able to use the hicap to power the DAC if you wish to do so. (others to confirm?)

Whether you will, of course is another matter. My further guess is that you will do so, because the improvement will be worth more than the selling price of the hicap.

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by T38.45
Hi Norman,
thanks for your impressions!
I'm running a Majik DS with NDAC, would be cool to hear your comments on that with your ears ;-)!
regards ralf
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by hungryhalibut
quote:
My guess is that you will be able to use the hicap to power the DAC if you wish to do so. (others to confirm?)


I think you need an XPS2 or 555PS.

Nigel
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by BigH47
Yes there is only? a Burndy socket for PSU upgrade.
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Rodborough
quote:
I actually took delivery of a CD5xs four weeks ago and I'm seriuosly thinking of the DAC route. I'm using mine with a hicap which made a substantial improvement. (When the CD5XS was new and without Hicap it was a bit 'weedy' and bright, it certainly isn't now its run in!).

If I get a DAC I assume (and I'm hoping) that I will not need the hicap, is that correct?


Hi Nico

You touch upon a very interesting point, which I left out of my original piece for fear of it becoming to wordy

The Flatcap variants capable of powering two Naim components, usually CD5(X)(XS) and preamp offer no improvement to performance of the CD5XS when combined with the DAC and I am therefore recommending that the best possible upgrade path where a preamp is being powered by a Flatcap is to upgrade to a HiCap2 on the Preamp now this can become a dedicated PSU upgrade.

I have used the CD5, CD5X & CD5XS with both the HiCap2 and Supercap2 but I found the performance was a little mental and a little too Hi-Fi for my taste and much preferred it on the Flatcap.

To answer your question specifically the Hicap currently on your CD5XS is going to become redundant but I always suggest caution in disposing of a Hicap as you never know when they are going to come in handy so you would be best to discuss with your dealer the future development of your system to ensure the Hicap will not be needed in future.

The only PSU upgrades for the Naim DAC are the XPS(2) & CD555PS so the Hicap cannot be used on the DAC.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by PS
quote:
All we need now is a comparable CDS3/XPS2 or 555PS comparitor and we will be off and running.


my thoughts too...where does the CDS3 fit into the league table of combinations tested?
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Joe Bibb
This has an awful deja vu feel about it. As with another (strangely) Trade post, we learn that the new DAC really flies with a CDX2(2) or the new CD5X.

So does this mean that it has been optimised for use with a (Naim) 16/44 feed from a CD transport? If so, am I alone in wondering why? There is already a fine range of CDPs. Surely the point of a stand alone DAC is to bring other digital sources into things.

It would be interesting to hear it compared with other £2k DACs using a range of sources rather than the usual (but no doubt lucrative) encouragement to add power supplies and expensive cabling before you even get the thing home.

Joe
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Rodborough
quote:
I certainly echo your comments on the timing of the arrival too. I've had little time to listen seriously, as I've just had to concentrate on getting things done for clients in advance of their Christmas break......Turntables everywhere and little time to post here either! But, hey-ho at least we've got it at last!


Hi Peter

Glad to be of some help, it has been fairly crazy here too, I suspect that a recent review on the Linn LP-12 upgrades suggesting that there are only a handful of capable dealers, mentioning UHES & Cymbiosis by name has produced this affect, thankfully for me though this work load falls upon Ian here but even he has peaked at 14 LP-12s per week for service, upgrade and new builds he also does the lion share of installs but thankfully we have been able to obtain some part time help and things are getting back under control here.

Both Ian & I have resisted recruiting full time help as we really like seeing all customers personally, but this may well be something we will have to consider seriously in the new year/decade.

Personally I have tried to make the new Naim DAC something of a priority in order to ensure that we continue to give best advice, but like you the workload has left very little time for anything else.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Rodborough
quote:
Hi Norman,
thanks for your impressions!
I'm running a Majik DS with NDAC, would be cool to hear your comments on that with your ears ;-)!
regards ralf


Hi Ralf

A little patience please I hope to find time to write this up shortly, but just as something of a taster one enters a whole new world when the HD LED illuminates on the DAC Winker

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:
I think you need an XPS2 or 555PS.

methinks you are right!!!! don't know what I was thinking about...........

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Rodborough
Hi Joe

quote:
This has an awful deja vu feel about it. As with another (strangely) Trade post, we learn that the new DAC really flies with a CDX2(2) or the new CD5X.


And indeed it does, but this is far from the full story, you have the advantage over me that I have not seen or read the other "Trade Post" but I am gratified that they came to the same comclusions as me if indeed they did.

quote:
So does this mean that it has been optimised for use with a (Naim) 16/44 feed from a CD transport?


Not so far as I am aware, if given sources able to produce higher resolution, personally I have tested it up to 24/96, my impression is that Naim have endeavoured to produce a high quality DAC but for sure they would have designed it around their own CD players and High Res sources such as the HDX.

quote:
It would be interesting to hear it compared with other £2k DACs using a range of sources rather than the usual (but no doubt lucrative) encouragement to add power supplies and expensive cabling before you even get the thing home.


You would need to be guided by the Moderators in terms of discussing alternative £2k DACs personally I have heard quite a number at varying price points this is after all a Naim Forum.

I am sorry you read into my post the encouragement to add additional PSU’s and cables distracting, it was not my intention, but many will already have these devices to hand but actually what I was trying to nail was the varying potential upgrade paths of the only two Naim CD players able to make use of the new Naim DAC, few individuals would have at their disposal the resources I have here.

Perhaps when I have had the time to make a further post bringing in a more varied selection of digital sources from Naim, Linn & Apple the thread will develop into something better balanced and may then suit you better.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:
You would need to be guided by the Moderators in terms of discussing alternative £2k DACs

Well, Naim have never been afraid of us discussing £30k alternatives to a 552/500 amp, or £15k alternatives to the 555cd player, or £5-£10k alternatives to the SL2 etc etc.

My guess is that they will be happy to have the DAC compared against other DACs on a fair basis. from what I have heard, I can't imagine they have anything to worry about.

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Joe Bibb
quote:
Originally posted by Rodborough:
Hi Joe


Perhaps when I have had the time to make a further post bringing in a more varied selection of digital sources from Naim, Linn & Apple the thread will develop into something better balanced and may then suit you better.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES


Hi Norman,

Look forward to that.

My point is that there would appear to be little gain in producing a stand alone DAC, merely to create a different type of two box CD player. Especially as there already exists (albeit with different bits in the boxes) a top range of separate box CDPs. Unless you are saying that the DAC with a transport is better than those? Confused

Surely the main interest in a stand alone DAC is to compare it to other stand alone DACs at the various price points such as DAC only, or DAC plus power supply... etc. Unless most folks idea of a comparison is one Naim box with another, of course.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
It would be interesting to hear it compared with other £2k DACs
Not interesting at all to me, as I've no interest in another £2k DAC - maybe that's just me, but this is a Naim forum and the thread title is Naim DAC – a dealers initial perspective.

My interest is the potential improvement it might have over my Naim CD player and how it might make some other source components bearable such as my DAB radio tuner.

I'm very impressed with what I've heard so far - albeit a limited demonstration. I prefer the original CDX2-VAM1250 over the newer CDX2-2 as it sounds a bit more energetic and in tune with the music, but the new CDX2-2 with DAC was a different matter. Question is what does a CDX2-VAM1250 Transport sound like with new DAC? Now that would interest me.

quote:
.. most folks idea of a comparison is one Naim box with another, of course.
Agreed - certainly mine.
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Joe Bibb
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
It would be interesting to hear it compared with other £2k DACs
Not interesting at all to me, as I've no interest in another £2k DAC - maybe that's just me,


So you're catered for. Nobody's suggesting you should.

But unless the forum is only for folk like you, there may be some people who's interest is a little wider than how it works with versions of CD transports.

Joe
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
there may be some people who's interest is a little wider than versions of CD transports
yes count me in on that, it is non-Naim DACs I've no interest in.
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Joe Bibb
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
there may be some people who's interest is a little wider than versions of CD transports
yes count me in on that, it is non-Naim DACs I've no interest in.


So you're catered for. Who are you trying to impress with your narrow view?
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by Joe Bibb
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ROTF:


My interest is the potential improvement it might have over my Naim CD player and how it might make some other source components bearable such as my DAB radio tuner. [QUOTE]

Why not get a better Naim CDP?

As for a DAC improving DAB? No chance, the info is lost at source. Internet radio with the DAC would be sonically better and an option.

Joe
Posted on: 20 December 2009 by kent
quote:
Originally posted by Red Rooster:
Good reading

All we need now is a comparable CDS3/XPS2 or 555PS comparitor and we will be off and running.

RR


I am looking forward to this comparison too.

Excellent work, Norman!