252 or CD555 ?

nigelb posted:

Wenger, having seen your current system in your profile and in answer to your question in the title of the thread, I would say neither, and go for a 552. Although I am not familiar with the CDX2, I only hear good things and with a PS555DR powering it, it should be very capable. But coming from a 282 then 252 and now 552, I can plainly hear just how revealing the 552 is above and beyond both the 282 and 252.

The 552 has revealed just how capable my NDS, 250DR and MA speakers really are. And you have a 300DR, just made for the 552.

I tried the NDS55/252DR against NDS/552 and the top pre won out easily. In this instance it was pre amp fist rather than source first. I promise you a 552 will bring your CDX2/555DR/300DR to life. Just need to find one to demo and then a pre loved one to buy. Simples!

Hearing about Nigel’s 552 has rekindled my interest. Even if I didn’t I might try the 555 on the CDX2 before trying the 552. 

I tried NDX but it wasn’t as good as CDX2 into nDac both with CPSDR. Then there was the App! Don’t mind getting up to choose music. Went for 555 and then 252, which is no mean performer.

The current system has got even better with speaker position tweaks. Next step is Superline demo because was so impressed by Rega Aura phono stage.

Phil

wenger2015 posted:

NIGELB,

very interesting observation.... it has already been mentioned once in this thread.... reference a CDS3 and 552.

I had initially dismissed the possibility of a 552....mainly due to the cost implications..... 

and the CDS3 seems unexciting compared to a CD555.

That said I have noted your own experience with the 552 and It has made me reconsider my next move....

Often my Choice of upgrade depends on a too good a deal to miss opportunity....it may just be a case of being patient until a 552 comes along at the right price?

Wenger, I have gone for a 2008, non DR'd 552 and once my 252 and SuperCapDR are traded in, I found the pre loved 552 to actually be affordable for me. I will have the 552 DR'd and serviced at the same time in a few years but it is sounding just wonderful as it is.

I went into the ND555/252 vs NDS/552 bake-off thinking I would come away with the ND555.

I was so wrong.

I  was looking at a 552 or holding out and hoping that eventually a CD555 would come on the US market. I was counseled "source first", meaning upgrade the CDS3 before the 52.  I opted for  holding out, then I spent the  money on kitchen cabinets.

JRHardee posted:

I  was looking at a 552 or holding out and hoping that eventually a CD555 would come on the US market. I was counseled "source first", meaning upgrade the CDS3 before the 52.  I opted for  holding out, then I spent the  money on kitchen cabinets.

Kitchen cabinets are great and family friendly! 

nigelb posted:

wenger2015 posted:

NIGELB,

very interesting observation.... it has already been mentioned once in this thread.... reference a CDS3 and 552.

I had initially dismissed the possibility of a 552....mainly due to the cost implications..... 

and the CDS3 seems unexciting compared to a CD555.

That said I have noted your own experience with the 552 and It has made me reconsider my next move....

Often my Choice of upgrade depends on a too good a deal to miss opportunity....it may just be a case of being patient until a 552 comes along at the right price?

Wenger, I have gone for a 2008, non DR'd 552 and once my 252 and SuperCapDR are traded in, I found the pre loved 552 to actually be affordable for me. I will have the 552 DR'd and serviced at the same time in a few years but it is sounding just wonderful as it is.

I went into the ND555/252 vs NDS/552 bake-off thinking I would come away with the ND555.

I was so wrong.

Yes, the pre-loved route is definitely the way to go....and as you say it can be serviced and dr’d in the future, which will provide further improvement...it’s a win win scenario...

Personally I have only ever heard the 552 at a hi-fi Show.....and was somewhat underwhelmed ... but as we all know black boxes can sound completely different once set up in the listening room...!

I may just hold out for a similar opportunity..

Mike Sullivan posted:

JRHardee posted:

I  was looking at a 552 or holding out and hoping that eventually a CD555 would come on the US market. I was counseled "source first", meaning upgrade the CDS3 before the 52.  I opted for  holding out, then I spent the  money on kitchen cabinets.

Kitchen cabinets are great and family friendly! 

The problem is that , from personal experience kitchen's furniture can be even more expensive than a 500 box.

Regards

Roberto

This and Nigel’s thread is getting to the heart of the 252 vs 552 issue. The 252 needs the source to be at the top of its game, which is what I found with the demo Rega Aura phonostage. Do I want to upgrade my digital side as well though. More demos is the only answer.

Phil

Definitely more demo,s.....I found NDX2/555ps with 552 to be be pretty poor compared to ND555/252 which was superb. I have a different power amp and speakers to Nigel, or perhaps it is the NDS being much better than NDX2, and the 552 being brutally transparent? Then throw a different pair of ears and music into the mix, and it’s anyones guess. Interesting to discuss and muse on the forum, in the end you have to do the listening groundwork for yourself.

Gazza posted:

Definitely more demo,s.....I found NDX2/555ps with 552 to be be pretty poor compared to ND555/252 which was superb. I have a different power amp and speakers to Nigel, or perhaps it is the NDS being much better than NDX2, and the 552 being brutally transparent? Then throw a different pair of ears and music into the mix, and it’s anyones guess. Interesting to discuss and muse on the forum, in the end you have to do the listening groundwork for yourself.

Gazza, am I right in thinking that your system is all new you having had a Nova as a stop gap?! That being the case it was a fairly level playing field when you demoed the two. The only things I can knock are that my analogue is not as good as the digital and Aura showed that the backing instruments and vocals can stand out more (affects the digital as well). You don’t have to worry about vinyl.

Phil

I had a a Nova with ex demo Nap300 dr. So I needed to buy ND555/555 ps plus preamp. I had already demo 252 vs 282, decided on 252. But just before I had the demo I saw the prices for NDS and CD555 and thought if a NDX2 with 555 ps into a 552 came close to a ND555/252......then in the future the most I could lose would be the £5 k of the NDX2. In the end it did not come close to the ND555/252. I bought a new ND555 and the rest 555ps dr/252/supercap dr were all ex demo. I gave up on the vinyl, so digital only.

To be fair, my demo of NDS/552 vs ND555/252 was at my dealers premises and the listening room was very different to what I am used to at home, so I probably did not hear the ND555/555PSDR/252DR at its best. Having said that the NDS/555PSDR/552 was way better to my ears in the same listening environment.

All the more reason to carry out your own 'due diligence' and listen for yourself. After all, it is a lot of money at this end of the Naim range.

Filipe posted:

MDS posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Reference the streaming v cd argument...

I would like to hear NDS level, but  is it as good as CD555 level?

I'd say no. 

Wenger and Mike, Apologies for a slight diversion. Mike, would I get better CD sound from my CDX2 if I put the 555Dr on it rather than playing through the nDAC + PS555DR? No brainier for a CD5555.

Phil

Some people are fans of what the CX2/555PS does.  I tried it with the assistance of my dealer one day but much preferred the CDX2 into nDAC/555PS.  For me the latter had a bigger soundstage, more detail and more boogie, especially at the bottom end.

Mike   

To the OP, I think the most logical step is to try the 252, since it sounds like you have access to it. I too have a 282 and would like to hear your thoughts. I dunno, putting big money into these new technologies.......who knows what is around the corner.

At least with Lps and CDs you know where you stand.

drawtheline55 posted:

, putting big money into these new technologies.......who knows what is around the corner.

At least with Lps and CDs you know where you stand.

My thoughts exactly.  I recently demo’d the NDX2/555 and impressive as it was I felt that it wasn’t entertaining in the way that my Xerxes and CDS3 are but more I could go to all the effort of ripping my CDs for a new invention to emerge in 3 or 4 years.   

Regards,

Lindsay

Love it or loath it streaming is here to stay.....but for me it’s not a route I want to pursue at the moment....

As has been suggested due diligence requires testing out the 252 whilst the opportunity is their....

wenger2015 posted:

Love it or loath it streaming is here to stay.....but for me it’s not a route I want to pursue at the moment....

As has been suggested due diligence requires testing out the 252 whilst the opportunity is their....

Wenger, We have very similar setups, apart from me using nDAC. I think the 252 can perform if everything is spot on. I think the speaker/room thing is important. I should have experimented sooner than I did, as I have had to ignore Focal’s advice and my dealers, but I’ve got a sweet spot now.

Phil

A 252 also needs spot on set up to get the best out of it. Racks, speaker positioning, cable dressing, rack ordering of kit (the 252 must be on top), suitable cables and power leads, the usual stuff but as much TLC as you can muster. It sounds a pain but when it is done you can just sit back.

Interesting. So should I move the 252 / SCDR to the top shelf in place of NDS / 555? The disadvantage of that would be that the NDS / 555 burndies may no longer hang fully free and untouched....

I've found that pre-amps like to be at the top of the stacks. That was the case with my 282/SCDR and 5552DR, and I did experiment.  With my acquisition of a CD555 I had to drop my 552 head-unit to the shelf below but have mitigated the impact. But given a free choice I'd go for siting the pre at the top every time.

One thing I have discovered over the years is that the Naim pre-amps don't particularly like to have a CD player right above them - it doesn't matter whether it's one with its own internal PS or just a head unit, keep the CD player and the pre-amp away from one another and definitely not just above or below each other. In more recent years I've extended this to include any digital source.

Richard Dane posted:

One thing I have discovered over the years is that the Naim pre-amps don't particularly like to have a CD player right above them - it doesn't matter whether it's one with its own internal PS or just a head unit, keep the CD player and the pre-amp away from one another and definitely not just above or below each other. In more recent years I've extended this to include any digital source.

Richard, Would say that this extends to nDAC powered off a 555DR?

Regarding other comments, I have tried to give some units more space (24cm shelf interval) like the 300 head, and on the brawn stack the 300DR power supply. My standard spacing is 18cm which is a bit more than normal.

Phil

Filipe, yes, although impact seems smaller than a CD player, my suspicion is that it is still there to a lesser extent.  If it's unavoidable then on a Fraim, a spare shelf is nice, otherwise, I find that intermediate levels give enough space to lessen impact, but still would avoid a CD player here, if possible. 

The ideal, as others have vouched here, is to have the pre-amp on the top shelf and then a good bit of space beneath.  Ironically though, I can't reasily do that myself as I have too many sources that can't fit on a normal inner shelf and must be on top - Reel to Reel, Turntables, Nak ZX-9 (OK, I admit it will - just - fit under an intermediate level) - but I keep digital kit away and have the TT on top of an intermediate level, then 552 on another intermediate level, then Superline on the bottom shelf.  I might though experiment with having the TT off to one side on an Audiotech table, thus allowing the 552 to sit on top.  Only problem is it's quite a stretch when there are three Fraim stacks already.  It will have to wait for the next big system strip down, but right now I'm enjoying the music too much to bother.

Richard thanks for your informative reply. What are the Naim shelf spacings? 18cm must be close to intermediate.  

I posted this photo recently either on this or Nigel’s thread. I’ve got some things right. I did swap the TT and CD when I installed the Naim glass.

I could listen to vinyl with the nDAC off to see if there is a difference (555DR off as well?). The Naim glass was transformative. My dealer recommended the HiFi Racks and I got a bit trapped as my system grew.

Life is full of compromises! Shame the politicians can’t on Brexit! 

Phil

Interesting because my racks are being replaced and reconfigured in the New Year, and one of the features Dr Peter has prescribed is having my 282 under my TT and not under the CDS3 with medium spaced shelves to provide more space.   

Regards,

Lindsay

Lindsay, sounds like Peter is well aware of what a CD player can do to the pre-amp when it's positioned right above it, so good optimisation advice here.