252 or CD555 ?

Common sense/realistic comments from both Northpole and S.I.S.....(IMHO)

Due to some downsizing/simplification I was recently able to get a 552 for little additional cost....before that I had the 252/300DR setup..

In hindsight that was more than enough...a great combo....both the 252 and 300 are very good.

Is the 552 better, yes, however for my ears it was an incremental improvement, not a life changing difference...I just wanted to end my upgraditus...which I have now done...

The 252/300 combo is very good, beyond that it is from my experience very much a case of diminishing returns for the costs involved..

Enjoy...

Yes, I do not want to 'spoil' Wenger's audition of the 252 and I have already mentioned how much I loved mine. In fact, I wasn't joking when I suggested Wenger doesn't listen to the 552. I have just come from a 252DR to a 552 and the difference is significant to these ears, but at a significant cost too.

The demo 252 should sound superb with Wenger's 300DR and I suspect, assuming careful set up, Wenger will appreciate the difference to his 282 although I realise the 252 is not for everyone.

Wenger, we are all clearly looking forward to your feedback on the 252 next week but do let it settle for a few days before you pronounce!

Hope the demo is set up well, for me the extra levels of texture the 252 over 282 sold it for me, in a NDX/XPS with 300dr and PMC 25.26. Just got to demo and listen with your music...enjoy, you really should enjoy the experience.

I have done as advised by Richard Dane and put an empty shelf above the 252 and it does open up the sound on the digital (nDAC is above) even more. Must be 360mm now rather than 180mm. Of course longer legs are cheaper. The other alternative is preamp on top, but not possible for me.

I also have space above and below the 300.

It all makes a difference especially when contemplating a 552. Nice to read SIS’s comments on that topic.

Phil

Had a great experience going from 282 to 252...it is stunning.. it is more sophisticated in its presentation..as a result made the system easier to enjoy for longer. You basically hear more and it presents much better.

Moved from CD to streaming 4 years ..use nDAC/XPS dr fed by Sonos connect. It was a significant improvement over my cdx2. CDs are a pain..the mechanics in a CD player don’t improve the sound...they only ruin it...it’s the dac that improves the sound....so when people say the cd555 is great ..they are saying the dac in it is great. Move to streaming...you won’t look back. 

There is a lot more to it than that. The CD555 has the same DAC as the nDAC but the CD555 sounds a great deal better.

ADRIANB,

As [@mention:1566878604018137] stated there is quite a lot more then just a DAC chip.  In fact, a DAC isn't "just a chip".

The chip may give the sound signature, but it is the whole architecture around that chip that makes the "final music" feeding your preamp.

There is a significant sound quality lift between nDAC+555PSDR and the CD555.

Rating the dacs and comparing units always gets varied feedback...Interestingly, according to some,  ndac only sits behind nd555 and nds... the new ndx2 is even deemed not as good as ndac. Ultimately people need to listen to form their own opinion. Don’t you just love Naim. 

TomSer posted:

ADRIANB,

As [@mention:1566878604018137] stated there is quite a lot more then just a DAC chip.  In fact, a DAC isn't "just a chip".

The chip may give the sound signature, but it is the whole architecture around that chip that makes the "final music" feeding your preamp.

There is a significant sound quality lift between nDAC+555PSDR and the CD555.

Having recently done that I can most certainly agree.

Filipe posted:

I have done as advised by Richard Dane and put an empty shelf above the 252 and it does open up the sound on the digital (nDAC is above) even more. Must be 360mm now rather than 180mm. Of course longer legs are cheaper. The other alternative is preamp on top, but not possible for me.

I also have space above and below the 300.

It all makes a difference especially when contemplating a 252. Nice to read SIS’s comments on that topic.

Phil

Meant to say 252 above. Now corrected in bold. Does apply to 552 as well.

Phil

The CD555 is on the same level as an ND555...which as many have commented on is the ‘best of the best’ .... is an Ndac on the same level.... I wouldn’t have thought so??

From the DAC and DSP section, the NDAC and ND555 are closely related - they follow the same high level architecture that started with the NDAC and use the same digital DSP oversample process and low pass filter approach for example.. however its also the case that much of the learning from the NDAC and NDS went into refining the ND555 so Naim felt they had a source that at least matched if not bettered the CD555 (or so I have been told).

Its probably fair to say architecturally the CD555 and CDX2 have far more in common - and indeed the CDX2 used the same traditional DAC chips (PCM1704K)  as the NDAC, NDS, CD555 and ND555 albeit different implementations and tolerances between the models... and to my ears there is a distinctive house sound theme running through those products.. albeit the ND555 is very refined indeed.

The ND555 is very good to my ears with the right system - and I would say very musically enjoyable with great timing - but doesn't give the insight and layers  that some other more recent developments in DAC technology and approach can provide.. but I guess we all appreciate different subtleties in how recorded music is replayed.

The good thing is that either the 252 or 552 will resolve these differences (clearly the 552 is better here) so you can enjoy the audio which ever way you ultimately prefer.

wenger2015 posted:

nigelb posted:

Wenger, I too will be interested to hear about how the 252 compares with your 282 in your system at home. Remember the 252 is even fussier about set up than the 282 but glad to see you have 2 columns of Fraim and good cabling. I know there has been some recent debate on here about kit ordering in Fraim racks but I am still of the opinion that the 252 sounds best given air around it on he top shelf.

Good luck.

BTW, I loved my 252 too.

Ok, that’s interesting....may have to drop the cdx2 down a shelf for the 252 to sit on top....

When you put the 282 back in the system try reverting to CDX2 on top, I found it reacted differently to a er, higher pre as to where to put it. Somewhat surprised at this ( though it was back with a hicap too which might also have had an influence) but there was no mistaking it.

Yes, do what you can to let the pre deliver without influence from digital. You may be surprised at how good the CDX2 can sound. You can then compare 252 and later 282.

Enjoy the 252 demo.

Phil

Unfortunately the 252 has been delayed ..... but  will hopefully arrive  tomorrow....

Well the demo 252 has landed, I have opened the box and unfortunately....... no Burndy!!!!!!!!!!!

This could drive a man to drink.....

wenger2015 posted:

Well the demo 252 has landed, I have opened the box and unfortunately....... no Burndy!!!!!!!!!!!

This could drive a man to drink.....

Arrrrrrrgh.........

Nooooo! The suspense is killing me.

Filipe posted:

I have done as advised by Richard Dane and put an empty shelf above the 252 and it does open up the sound on the digital (nDAC is above) even more. Must be 360mm now rather than 180mm. Of course longer legs are cheaper. The other alternative is preamp on top, but not possible for me.

I also have space above and below the 300.

It all makes a difference especially when contemplating a 552. Nice to read SIS’s comments on that topic.

Phil

Phil,

When you say that it's not possible for you to put the preamp on top, is that because you have your turntable on top? As you know, I too have that problem. I have the preamp under the LP12, with built in phono stage, which is not powered until the Radikal is switched on. Are you suggesting that the preamp is compromised just by the presence of an unpowered turntable? The arrangement of the turntable on top of the Fraim is as was advised by my naim dealer to address other perceived issues.

Clive B posted:

Filipe posted:

I have done as advised by Richard Dane and put an empty shelf above the 252 and it does open up the sound on the digital (nDAC is above) even more. Must be 360mm now rather than 180mm. Of course longer legs are cheaper. The other alternative is preamp on top, but not possible for me.

I also have space above and below the 300.

It all makes a difference especially when contemplating a 552. Nice to read SIS’s comments on that topic.

Phil

Phil,

When you say that it's not possible for you to put the preamp on top, is that because you have your turntable on top? As you know, I too have that problem. I have the preamp under the LP12, with built in phono stage, which is not powered until the Radikal is switched on. Are you suggesting that the preamp is compromised just by the presence of an unpowered turntable? The arrangement of the turntable on top of the Fraim is as was advised by my naim dealer to address other perceived issues.

Hi Clive, I’m not suggesting the preamp is compromised by the presence of my unpowered turntable or visa versa. Temporarily I have TT on top of CDX2 and only have one on. It seems ok as best I can tell. It takes time to listen to enough music to be sure. I will sort the shelves out with longer legs later.

The message has to be to give the preamp lots of space from digital sources as Richard says. It’s a really really big improvement for me.

Phil

I also have a turntable above a 552, it's not a Linn and has no metal subchassis but a larger motor. I can hear no difference in ND555 replay whether it's on or off. With the 552 a shelf lower the system lost the spring in its step, probably from proximity to the 500ps on the adjacent rack. Moving the superline from above the 500 head unit up a shelf to below the preamp did make an improvement in LP replay so I've put the ND head unit where it used to be. I've not heard any effect on LP replay from putting the ND in standby compared to leaving it on, even with an active feed to it, doesn't mean there isn't one but it's not obvious whereas swapping plug order on the block has a very noticable effect on the whole system. This with passive NBLs, active might be a tad more revealing.

Most of us have restraints on how we can set up our systems, be they aesthetic, children, space or financial but there's usually room to optimise within those restraints.

yeti42 posted:

I also have a turntable above a 552, it's not a Linn and has no metal subchassis but a larger motor. I can hear no difference in ND555 replay whether it's on or off. With the 552 a shelf lower the system lost the spring in its step, probably from proximity to the 500ps on the adjacent rack. Moving the superline from above the 500 head unit up a shelf to below the preamp did make an improvement in LP replay so I've put the ND head unit where it used to be. I've not heard any effect on LP replay from putting the ND in standby compared to leaving it on, even with an active feed to it, doesn't mean there isn't one but it's not obvious whereas swapping plug order on the block has a very noticable effect on the whole system. This with passive NBLs, active might be a tad more revealing.

Most of us have restraints on how we can set up our systems, be they aesthetic, children, space or financial but there's usually room to optimise within those restraints.

@Yeti42 I can’t quite visualise your Racks. Also please could you describe your plug ordering?Thanks. 

Like your description of the sound loosing the spring it’s step. Can become flat footed even!

Phil

I wonder if the observation regarding proximity of digital sources to the preamp would still apply in the case of the ND555. which has a Faraday cage surrounding the digital input section. 

Clive B posted:

I wonder if the observation regarding proximity of digital sources to the preamp would still apply in the case of the ND555. which has a Faraday cage surrounding the digital input section. 

I understand Richard Dane to mean that digital sources are noisey wrt to the preamp. It would therefore depend on whether there is less getting out of the output section. I suppose you could try and see if you hear any difference. 

Its a shame we have to jump through so many hoops, but maybe it would be boring if we just listened to music.

Phil

252 missing Burndy has finally arrived...... system now up and running..... 

i suppose it’s now a question of giving it 2or 3 days to settle in....

its going to be interesting to directly compare with the 282....